Patt Morrison
I'm Patt Morrison. We were just talking about some of the intricacies of the Supreme Court but the American public is not very knowledgeable about its court system. One out of three believes the Supreme Court ruling can be appealed. Less than half of Americans believe that a five to four decision by the court carries the same legal weight as a nine to zero ruling. And as former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor herself said that one third of Americans can name the three branches of government but two thirds can name a judge on American Idol, or Justice Sandra Day O'Connor is here to talk about how she would like to improve that civic education. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Where you're welcome. I'm pleased to do so it sounds like you're spending time today on The US Supreme Court?

Patt Morrison
Well, we are indeed and we're happy that you can illuminate it for us as well. One of the other things you said at this conference is that if someone had told you when you retired from the court, you'd be talking at a conference about digital gaming, you think they had wondering too many. And yet, here you are.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I know it. It is amazing. Because I'm certainly not tech expert in that field. But you'll hear this afternoon. what has transpired in that regard in an effort to enhance civics education, and it will be interesting to get your reaction to

Patt Morrison
will I'm sure our listeners are engaged to to find out what it is that you are using this medium for how you end up teaching with this tool. And this is a game at a website called our courts.org. It's a free game where people can on one level play Do I have a right as a member of a constitutional law firm, and they can also play a clerk for the Supreme Court. What do you think this medium can do? To teach people about how the courts work

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
well, we understand from posts that have been taken that about 97% of young people in this country are willing to play computer games and do so when we given our chance. And it seemed to me that if we were going to try to educate a generation of young people, about the three branches of government, it might make sense to include some computer games that all of them would enjoy playing. And so far from my early expectations, we ended up concluding that that was a good thing to do. And we've included it as part of our website to try to teach middle schoolers about our third branch of government.

Patt Morrison
You weren't tempted to call it Grand Theft constitution after that popular game. Grand Theft Auto, we are

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
not exactly. But we have managed to put two very delightful and entertaining but educational games on the website. And we hope that the website will be used by middle school teachers all across the country to introduce the children to that topic and let the young people will then use the games on their own time.

Patt Morrison
You've spent 25 years on the high court and since you left one of the things you've been passionate about talking about is that people understand the court people are as some of the facts the deplorable facts that I quoted that the beginning when we began talking about how little people understand why do you think that is?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
In part, it's because about half the states in the United States have stop making courses In civics and in government a requirement for high school graduation, in an earlier time, when public schools were started in this country, they didn't start when the Constitution was written, they came later. And when they did, it was the plan that the public schools were justified because they would teach young people about our government and how it works, and that we hoped it would make better citizens of our young people. And I think for many years, schools did feel obliged to teach some of American history and quite a bit of civics and government. And through the years, that practice has ended in about half the states. Part of it, I think, was helped along probably as an unintended consequence of the No Child Left Behind laws. As you probably know, and our listeners probably know, when American high school and middle school students were tested alongside those other countries, we learned that our students are falling way behind in science and math that students in other nations are doing much better than we are. And that's concerned, both are then Protestant, and members of Congress. And they devised a system of federal monetary aid to public schools. If the schools could show by test scores, that they were doing a better job of teaching math and science, right. And that really produced a big effort on the part of many of the schools across the country to teach math and science and hopefully get the students to make the scores on the standardized test and part of my head Is that it reduce the concentration or interest at the schools and in teaching history in civics and government, there's no federal money there for that. So, as a disappointing side effect, I think it encouraged states to just drop civics and government and history.

Patt Morrison
Former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor is my guest talking about her new educational website, our courts.org. And the games on that site intended to teach the Constitution and the courts to middle school students. If you have any questions about this, give us a call at 866893 k PCC. You can also put your question on the Pat Morrison page at K pcc.org or call us here at 866-893-5722. Justice O'Connor, what do you think the consequences are to the courts when people don't know what they do and how they're supposed to operate?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I think over the years, probably many things People, including a great many of the adults in our population, have probably lost sight of what it was the framers of the Constitution had in mind. Excuse me when they created the federal judicial system, you know, most of the litigation in our country is handled in state courts. All 50 states have their own state court system. Most of the criminal cases and most of the civil cases are handled in state courts. But the framers of the Constitution created a federal Supreme Court and Congress, the very first Congress standards, adopted lower federal courts as well. And they handled some civil and criminal cases that deal with federal criminal laws and federal issues of law and the framers in in setting up Supreme Court and then lower federal court tried to assure the independence of the federal judges by providing that they did not serve a term for years they serve as the Constitution says for good behavior, which in effect is left up to the judge to decide when to step down. And they provided that the compensation of the federal charges could not be decreased during their

Patt Morrison
time and office. Justice O'Connor, we're going to let you take a drink and we're going to take a bit of a break and be back in a moment on 89.3 k PCC with

Sandra Day O'Connor was the first woman appointed to the Supreme Court she served about a quarter century before retiring from the court. She's been interested since in the Civic Education of people about the courts and how they operate. Her latest effort on that is our courts.org and a couple of computer games too. Teach middle school students about the constitution and constitutional principles. If you'd like to talk to her about that it's 866893 KP. cc. Justice O'Connor, have you played this game yourself?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I looked at it. And now I can't say that I played it as a game. I just went over it and looked at it. And it looks terrific to me. I'm very excited about it. Have you tried it on your grandchildren? I've watched several young people play it. And they were very enthused, and that gave me a lot of encouragement.

Patt Morrison
It's been pointed out that on your Supreme Court in your game, there are five women,

Unknown Speaker
of course.

Patt Morrison
Why not? Well, you also said that that you went when Sonia Sotomayor was nominated to the court now the third woman nominated that she was in going to be in for a miserable nomination process. Is that generally true or is it particularly true for women?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, it's generally true. And maybe When federal judges and Supreme Court justices were nominated Congress, the Senate just confirmed without ever asking them a single question. They take a vote. And if they were affirmative, the confirmation would go through. And if they were negative, it wouldn't. And nobody was ever someone for questions that started at about the time. Justice Brandeis was nominated for their court. He was known as the people's lawyer, and he did a lot of pro bono litigation against big business. And there was quite a bit of opposition to his nomination. And that was when it was suggested for the first time that maybe the judiciary committee should ask the nominee a few questions. And that became quite an obsession with the Judiciary Committee. By the time that TV decided to give it gavel to gavel cuff coverage, when I was nominated, that was the situation and we had a lot of press in attendance for all of the hearings. And it was given gavel to gavel TV coverage. That's kind of irresistible to senators. They don't have to pay for that. They can sit there looking area and get a lot of free exposure.

Patt Morrison
And they certainly obliged themselves then and have since on the senate hearings, which go on for quite a while.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
That's right, I don't think we're going to see a change in that pattern.

Patt Morrison
And so one question one of our listeners has is whether you think cameras in the courtroom would be a good move for this kind of civic education.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, conceivably, there's not much enthusiasm among the justices for it. And I can understand that because they are very concerned that it might somehow change The nature of the presentation by the lawyers and just changed the atmosphere that exists at present, I must say. It is a very serious business. It's the course. And it works quite well. And the text, The written text of the questions and the arguments is available, often almost immediately for people so we are able to at least have all of the full text of what was said.

Patt Morrison
When we're just to send to do Connor is my guest, Corrine and Hollywood is calling about the online game that teaches middle school students about the courts. Corrine, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker
Hello, how are you ladies? And I was just wanted to say kudos to the judge. What an excellent idea.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And I hear you saying that you're starting high school kids. I would love to see it move to elementary down to elementary, because you're right. They don't keep it anymore. So that That would be the best place to start with it. Well, I thought maybe the best place was with middle school students. They're at a great age, and they tend to be so curious and good learners and happy to learn. And six seventh eighth grade is certainly old enough for them to have the concepts in mind that we're trying to teach. So I thought that was kind of an ideal age group to target

Patt Morrison
and in fact, Korean one of the case studies has to do with a student wearing a T shirt about his favorite rock band and first amendment and free speech issues. So that hits right at the middle school level. Korean thank you for your call in Studio City. Sarah's calling with a question, Sarah, go ahead.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Hello. Hello, Joseph O'Connor. And hello, Pat. I'm honored to be on the radio with you all. My question is regarding the lack of education as far as civics and government go and suggested feel that in some way, the government that we have and have had for the past, say 40 years or so has one dumb down our children or our electorate in general, because the dumber the electorate the easier to control, I'd be curious to know her personal feelings about that. Just I don't think there's been any in camp to cause our population to become less educated than they were. It's just been the product of the system that we created. We've put less effort into the education system than we should. There's nothing more important. It seems to me, that education of every generation, and I think we need to teach them about how the government is structured, how it runs and how citizens are part of it and what they can do. I just don't think there's anything more essential to us as a nation.

Patt Morrison
Justice O'Connor before you came on, we were talking to David Sachs at the Los Angeles Times who's covered the court? For Gosh, about as long as you were on it, I guess and in discussing revisiting the mccain feingold, the camp, the campaign contribution laws. You wrote one of the decisions in the five for ruling in 2003 that declared this constitutional. Can I ask your thoughts about the court revisiting this case? And revisiting it so soon?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, there isn't anything I would feel comfortable saying it's up to the present members of the court, and certainly they are considering possibly making changes in the previous holding of the court on the mccain feingold law. So I don't think I have any business saying anything about it, except to the effect that it is certainly possible that current views have changed.

Patt Morrison
Just to Sandra Day O'Connor is the former Justice of the Supreme Court also the author of the majesty of the law, Reflections of a Supreme Court justice. Lazy be a memoir about growing up in Arizona and her new book. Finding Susie touches my heart a children's book about a little girl adopting a rescue dog. She's also very committed to teaching civics education, especially now with a new online computer game at our courts.org to teach middle students about the courts and about civics. George in Long Beach is a teacher and he shares her concerns. George, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I teach at a 3ds College Well, I had been teaching until last year or last semester rather, and my course in photography was reduced or eliminated. And I remember my experience in the 70s at a liberal arts institution with your college getting my bachelor's degree, and how important it was at that time to get a broad based education and really have a feel for what civics meant and government and, and cultures generally, and it seems now, even just teaching a studio art class, it's incumbent upon a lot of teachers and justice maybe feels this way too because we're a new program to really teach what you're not supposed to teach. And to have to Teacher these subjects are no longer covered and made important in the classroom.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I'm very concerned about it. And I'm just hoping that this civics program that we've put together is going to be widely used and will help alleviate what I think is quite a critical situation in our schools.

Patt Morrison
Just as a kind of what do you think the dangers are? If we don't have this education? What happens to politics? What happens to democracy?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, we're less effective, we will have a population that doesn't understand how they should be involved and will have elected officials who won't have a public that understands the issues or how they can be engaged and involved. So I think we all better care about

Patt Morrison
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor is my guest here talking about her Education Project Online, our courts.org and a couple of video games aimed at middle schoolers teaching them about constitutional principles by He is calling from Studio City. Bonnie, thank you so much.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Hi, Justice O'Connor. I am so I'm so such an admirer. And but I wanted to ask you since you did resign, I wondered particularly given Justice Sotomayor is joining the Corps. Where do you have any regrets about not being on the court at this time? No, my husband has Alzheimer's, and he's very ill. And we've been married 56 years. He gave a lot of his life to me. And it was time I gave a lot of it back to him. So no, I think that I did what I wanted and needed to do at the time, which is just stepped down

Patt Morrison
for his care. Bonnie, thank you for your call. I'm Justice O'Connor. You wrote about Reflections of a Supreme Court justice. Of course, a lot of people have written about you when you left the court. The New York Times said that your America your principles are for court that used to conservative principles but tempered by company Passion for individuals and an unwillingness to follow ideology blindly to unreasonable places. Is that a fair assessment of your role on the court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I don't know. It sounds pretty good.

Patt Morrison
Have you watched any cases subsequently and thought about how you would ask questions have you

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
had in the courtroom several times since I stepped down and listen to an argument or two. And it all looked very familiar, I have to say. And, of course, it's such an interesting process. But I was very privileged to be there for as long as I was. And so I'm not going to look back and say, Oh, dear, I think I did what I needed to do.

Patt Morrison
You are keeping your hand in as a visiting judge next month, you're going to be serving on a couple of pencil panels of the Sixth Circuit Court.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes. And hitting on the Federal Court of Appeals.

Patt Morrison
What Why are you doing that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, mainly because Congress tenets wisdom requires required justices to do that.

Patt Morrison
Really it's part of your ex

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
job description. That's right. Read the statute.

Patt Morrison
Just to Sandra Day O'Connor is my guest talking about the need for civics education and how her part of it is a web based education project at our courts.org, which is an interactive video game to teach students about constitutional principles and constitutional issues. Her Supreme Court happens to have five women and four men and minority members on it perhaps a very different composition from what we see on the courts. Now, justice, we see more women than men at university and more women than men at law school. It looks like it's a trickle up process that's taking some time.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
So far it is. I had an interesting visit last week to Finland. And you might be interested to know that Finland permitted women to vote way back in 1906 and Finland has had a higher percentage of women in their parliament and on their court system than any other nation in the world. It's very impressive. And I think one reason Simmons has been so successful that way is because of their education system. They have a very good one, and one that emphasizes the qualities that women bring to public service.

Patt Morrison
We were talking about the hearing process, the confirmation process that nominees to the High Court go through one of the terms that gets used a lot as activists judge, what does that term mean to you? And why is everybody using it?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I'm not sure I wish I knew. I thought it probably met a judge who was willing to get up early in the morning and go to work. But I think that people who use that term are using it disparagingly to suggest a judge who is following the judges own concepts of what the law should be then further revenue. up the law, in fact is I have not seen much evidence of activism in that sense. While I was on the court, I think everyone has tried to follow the law as they understand it. And even doing so, we are a common law nation. We follow Great Britain in that system. And in developing the principles that we apply in interpreting federal law, differences of opinion can emerge and they do emerge. And so not not every judge or justice decides and issue quite the same way. I'm sorry to say, it's not all left clear.

Patt Morrison
We have a listener named Bruce, whose blog the question his impression is that the court is hearing fewer cases than it used to Is that true?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, that is true. And nobody is quite sure why this The Congress of the United States, after I joined the Court made mandatory appellate jurisdiction of the court discretionary and that reduce the number. And I'm not sure why the numbers are as low as they are present. I think it's just as well, I don't see any need for it to go up. There's plenty to do if it is, but it's true that the numbers of cases the court except for review is less than it was when I joined the court back in 81.

Patt Morrison
One of the interactive features on this our courts.org website is a talk to the Justice message board for students. Are you reading messages from students and answering them?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Indeed I am.

Patt Morrison
What do they want to know? And what are you telling them?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, all kinds of things will get you a list, if you will.

Patt Morrison
What's some of the best questions that students have put to you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I don't know. I can't even think what they might have been, but we've been reading them and answering them and it's been good Because clearly we take the questions that, at least in my view, are questions that lend themselves to an explanatory answer. We don't want to take foolish questions or questions that don't lend themselves to a good explanation.

Patt Morrison
Justice a kind of course, one question people ask a lot of you and I'm sure they have to you in person and they are doing so here is whether you regret any of your decisions on the court, any of your rulings,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I made a decision early on when I became a judge and I was a judge at the state court level first, that I would put all my efforts in at the front end to try to understand the case and the governing principles, do the best I could to reach a decision, make it and not look back and I tried to do that throughout my judicial career. I don't think you'd be a very happy judge. If you were coming. Instantly you looking back and saying oh my goodness was I wrong there are but that's not a good way to operate.

Patt Morrison
Just so Connor Can you tell us in just a few seconds about your book about

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
the dog that finding Susie finding Susie well it's a book based on truth true events in my life growing up on the lazy be ranch I had a series of wild animals at my mother didn't want an animal in the house so I tried to make pets out of several wild animals and most of them didn't turn out to successfully and I finally ended up being introduced to a little stray dog that might it was a wonderful little dog that had a nice smile and I don't know if you've ever seen

Patt Morrison
a dog I haven't deep Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Finding Susie is the book. She's our guest and she's also talking about a computer game to educate students in the in the civics of the courts. The Sandra Day O'Connor Eagles went to an eight last season. Justice O'Connor I certainly hope former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court Sandra Day O'Connor.