By Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

PBS interview discussing her book, The Majesty of the Law

May 14, 2003

PBS interview discussing her book, The Majesty of the Law
ITEM DETAILS
Type: Interview, TV appearance
Source: PBS, Kentucky Center for the Arts

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Transcript

(Automatically generated)

Unknown Speaker
In 1981, Sandra Day O'Connor made history, she became the first woman to serve on the Supreme Court. But that honor is actually one milestone in a long and accomplished career dedicated to the law. In 2003, Justice O'Connor talked about her work and life with NBC correspondent Pete Williams. taped in front of a live audience at the Kentucky Center for the Arts, great conversations, just to Sandra Day O'Connor and Pete Williams.

Pete Williams
And then we begin with a passage that's in both of your books the lazy be and the majesty of the law. It's from one of your professors at Stanford, the great novelist, historian and biographer Wallace Stegner, you know the passage I'm referring to would you read that to us

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Right now let me find out I should have marked all this. Yes, here it is. Wallace Stegner was my favorite American author still is but he's passed away. And this is what he wrote, among other things about the West. You know, he grew up in Saskatchewan, Canada, and then moved to the west and he loved the West. He said, There is something about living in big empty space where people are few and distant, under a great sky that is alternately serene and furious. exposed to son from four in the morning till nine at night, and to a wind that never seems to rest. There is something about exposure to that big country that not only tells an individual how small he is, but steadily tells him who he is.

Pete Williams
When you grew up in just such a place. Tell us a little bit about the ladies. Be tell us first of all why is it called the lazy be this doesn't sound like there was anything lazy about it.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It was a brand when my grandfather day decided to start ranching in the then territory of New Mexico. He went to Mexico to buy a herd of cattle to put on the land and the herd that he bought have the lazy be brand on the left hip. Now a brand is lazy if it's lying down on its side so this is a be lying down the letter like that the letter B and so lazy be the ranch became and remained and the brand remained that as well.

Pete Williams
And what kind of country was it?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it's high open desert country, south of the Hilo river on the border of Arizona, New Mexico and the rainfall their averages 10 inches a year or less. So it isn't much They are semi arid mesas they're ringed by some volcanic mountains to the south and to the west. And they were formed by ancient volcanic eruptions. The country is very arid, and virtually everything there can hurt you in some ways spines and thorns will puncture you. Ants or scorpions will bite you snakes are frequently found

Pete Williams
you speak from experience about i doing

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
all those things and he died. Do you really didn't want to fall off your horse because you might land on a cactus or an ant Damn. So get paid to stay on board if you could?

Pete Williams
Well, the prospect of being bitten by a scorpion must make the Supreme Court seem fairly benign.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, you'd be surprised I'm not so sure but You know, I formed a habit in Arizona years ago that before I put on my shoes, I'd shake them out in case there was a scorpion sometimes they were they seem to like to hide and shoes and dark closets. Do you still do that to this day I will find myself shaking out my shoes.

Pete Williams
Well now you obviously are very fond of this. This these lines by Wallace Stegner about how living in that big country tells an individual how small he is, but steadily tells him who he is. What did it tell you about who you are?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I don't know. It told me that I was a branch girl. And that I'd better help try to make that go up and out there. I don't think that ever told me that a cowgirl was going to be a member of the Supreme Court.

Pete Williams
You you describe trying to make it a go of a cattle ranch in this very arid climate. When you were growing up on the ranch. Did you ever think you were having a hard life?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No. I didn't think so I'm sure it was from my parents perspective. But from my perspective, it was just very interesting and a lot of fun. I loved being there. And I used to call it my ranch and my cattle. And every day was some kind of an adventure. You never knew what you'd be doing. And I went out frequently with my father around the branch sometimes with the Cowboys. During roundups, I'd ride sometimes with the roundup crew and every day was adventurous. You never know what you'd see or do

Pete Williams
outside of your own family. The earliest people you ever knew were cowboys.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, yes, my early babysitters were these tough old cowboys and Levi's and dirty clothes and unshaven and there they'd be talking baby, talk to this little child out there.

Pete Williams
Well, you right lovingly of your father But you say that he always had to have the last word in any argument, and that you and your brother and sister picked up that same trait. Do you still have it?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm afraid so I must be a day trade. But he, he was so intelligent. He didn't have a college education. He wanted to very much. He had hoped go to Stanford actually, and his father died at about the time he was ready to go. And so he was sent to the ranch to try to keep things going there until the estate could be settled. He never intended to remain on the ranch all his life. But he did. And he loved knowledge. He read widely. He and my mother had a very good library, and they subscribe to newspapers and magazines. And they were just interested in everything and he wanted to know how everything worked and He could fix anything living out on the ranch. We didn't have a telephone and you couldn't call anybody to repair the car. If it broke down, you had to do it yourself. If some animal was sick, he had to be the veterinarian. Indeed, if one of us got sick, or if a cowboy fell and broke a bone, he pretty much have to set that there were no doctors anywhere around. He really had to be everything. He built the house. He put up windmills. When we eventually got some kind of a party telephone line. He had to put up our telephone poles for

Pete Williams
10 miles holes and the wires Yes. Now, he was obviously a strong man, but not the strong silent type.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, my goodness. He talked a lot. I think maybe it was because we didn't see so many people out there. And if he ever got a visitor It was not Stop talking. When john and i would come to the ranch, even when we had to get up and go the bathroom my father would follow us follow us and and keep talking.

Pete Williams
But this must have created a new and interesting conversation and ideas.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, very much so. And I remember the years when I was at Stanford and being exposed to the professor's there, I was studying economics and some of the economic theories were pretty antithetical to my father's point of view. And we would have very long discussions you might even say arguments around the dinner table over Keynesian economic theory,

Pete Williams
as you began to think about being an adult and having your own life and your own career, what to use the cliche What did you want to be when you grew up?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I wanted to be a cattle rancher. And one of my best friends I had to go to school in El Paso, Texas, because there wasn't a school near the lazy D and I live with great Parents in El Paso and one of my good friends there was the daughter about my age of a cattlemen. And the two of us used to plan how we were each going to have ranches and what we would do and how we manage it. Now we'd get together and continue our friendship.

Pete Williams
Did you think about your brand?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No. I eventually had a brand but it wasn't a very good one. You know those simple early brands all got taken so you had to do something else

Pete Williams
Flying rocking horse V's--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Right. Terrible.

Pete Williams
Well, what do you think you learned from the ranch that stayed with you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I will say this that verbal skills were not high on the list of what was needed out on the record. I think probably qualities of dependability, hard work. Honesty was terribly important out there. And a sense of humor. was pretty important, too.

And certainly it--

Pete Williams
Why was a sense of humor important?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, because the life was pretty tough and you saw each other constantly. And if you could have a few laughs along the way, it always made things better.

Unknown Speaker
You also talk throughout the book about your father's demanding that every job no matter how small be done, well,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I know up just whatever it was, and we never expected praise for any job we did. But if it wasn't done properly, we'd hear about it.

Pete Williams
So So pray--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
If you heard nothing, It was okay.

Unknown Speaker
Well, what got you interested in the law and made you change your mind about ranching?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I took a class as an undergraduate at Stanford, from a man who was on law schools, faculty, but he taught an undergraduate school on law. He was so inspiring. I just thought he was was wonderful. He was the most inspiring teacher I ever had. And because of him, I decided to apply for law school admission. I really didn't know if I would finish law school I applied for early admission as my senior year. And I didn't know where that might lead.

Pete Williams
Were there many women in your law school class?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No. When I went to law school at Stanford, we were about five on the law school. About 1% of the law students at that time were women, nationwide. And last year, more than 50% of the law students were women. Isn't that incredible?

Pete Williams
Did--did anyone-- [applause]

Unknown Speaker
Did anyone ever say to you at Stanford, you know this. I don't know why you're bothering to go to law school. You're a woman.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I didn't hear that much. Probably. There were some who thought that Most of my classmates were men who had served in the military in World War Two. And some of them had seen pretty hard duty and had spent a good many years in the service during World War Two. They've gotten out. They were home. They many of them had gotten married. And they were very anxious to learn how to earn a living. They wanted to they were very serious about law school, they cared about it, they wanted to get out and go to work

Pete Williams
was probably a good atmosphere for you then. And which

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I think was I mean, they were terrific, but it's not your typical law school class. We I was much younger, certainly.

Unknown Speaker
And then came your graduation. And here you had a Stanford Law School degree, which was a big deal, right? shiny. What position where you offered at the law firm that you applied to?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I couldn't get an interview. With a law firm here, we're always notices on the place. board at Stanford Law School with notes from the different major law firms and California asking Stanford Law graduates to apply to them for interviews for jobs. And I made a number of calls and I never got a call back, never got an interview. And I finally asked a young woman I knew at Stanford whose father was a partner in one of the big firms to see if her father could get an interview for me. And he did. I went to Los Angeles and had an interview with a partner in this major law firm. And we chatted for a while and then finally said, well mistake, how do you type and I said, Well, just average I'm, I'm not particularly skilled, but okay. And he said, Well, if you type well enough, I might be able to get you a job here as a legal secretary. But mistake we never hired a woman as a lawyer. And I don't see the day when we will.

Pete Williams
What was your reaction? Were you surprised when you were

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
young? I was surprised. I am. I must say, I think I must have been terribly naive. I never for one moment in law school thought about not being able to get a job. Everyone was getting jobs when they got out. And it never occurred to me that I wouldn't. And I was very surprised, actually.

Unknown Speaker
So what did you end up doing that after you discovered that you probably weren't

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
met john and we had gotten engaged, we were going to be married. And he was a year behind me in law school. And we plan to probably eat after our marriage. One of us had to get a job and work and that was me. we'd spent the last money that we had on honeymoon so it was pretty necessary that a job they found and I talked my way into the district attorney's office in San Mateo County, California,

Pete Williams
which is right near Stanford.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes. And it was a job in the public sector, which in those days was the sector that had begun to hire a few women lawyers.

Pete Williams
And what did that job pay?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, nothing at first. In fact, I get it, I had to promise that I, they didn't have a vacancy and didn't have an office. And I said, Well, I could work for a while for nothing. And I'd be happy to sit in your secretary's office if she'll have me. And that was kind of the deal we struck. But luckily, I hadn't been there along when the district attorney was made the county judge and my supervisor was made the district attorney and that open slots and I got a bonafide position and my own office and a paycheck and a paycheck was great.

Unknown Speaker
By the way, what is it about Stanford for members of the court now when there is undergraduate You and the Chief Justice went to law school there. Yes. What What is it about Stanford's? just coincidence?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, no, that's cool.

Pete Williams
I agree. I went there to I had to ask that question.

Unknown Speaker
You mentioned a moment ago that the difference between 1% of the students being women when you were in law school and now 50%, obviously, there have been plus 50. Plus, obviously, opportunities for women have changed then but throughout the law, how much have they changed?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
dramatically. I think in 1981, something like five to 7% of judges in our country are women. Now it's between 15 and 20%. So that number has greatly increased. Today, law firms actively recruit women law graduates I think most jobs are open today. And I like to think that the appointment of a woman to the Supreme Court opened a lot of those doors.

Unknown Speaker
Is there any question about that? I don't think so. No. Well, let's talk about your coming onto the court. Did it occur to you when you got that call? And by the way, you quote a former Justice of the Supreme Court that likens the nomination to the Supreme Court as a phenomenon of the weather.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, lewis powell, used to say that being nominated for service on the US Supreme Court was a little like being struck by lightning in both the suddenness and the improbability

Pete Williams
was that true for you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Very much so

Pete Williams
Suddenness?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, and improbability. I never expected to be asked to serve on the court and even after I had been asked by the then Attorney General William French Smith To go to Washington to meet with some of the President's advisors and indeed with the President himself, I got on the airplane that afternoon to return to Phoenix. And I breathed a big sigh of relief and said to myself, well, that was so interesting that thank goodness, I have don't have to go back there and do that job. Because I was convinced I wouldn't be asked and I thought it would be very difficult if I were difficult, in what way? What's hard a hard job? Very hard job demanding.

Unknown Speaker
Did it occur to you right from the beginning that your nomination would get so much attention as the first woman on the Supreme Court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Now it should have it's a little like, not finding job offers. I don't think I appreciated the extent of media attention, it would Garner

Unknown Speaker
What was it like? before actually, before you get onto the court, I'm interested in a couple of things that you cite in your majesty of the law book, some With the correspondents, you've got, you quote, an anonymous letter writer who said, Who sent you a note that said, and I quote, back to your kitchen and home female.

Pete Williams
Was there much of that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I had so much mail. after my arrival at the Supreme Court, it would come in in huge bags full like that every day several and more than we could open. And we were trying so hard in the office to open the mail and even to try to respond if the response was indicated. And most of the mail was very positive. I heard from many women who would say things like this, I cannot begin to describe with what the light I viewed the surprising headlines in Chicago's newspapers the day of your nomination. I actually stood there with my mouth hanging open, and an idiotic grin on my face feeling overwhelmingly euphoric, and friends. And then a few of the other kind back to your kitchen on home female, this is a job for a man and only he can make the rough decisions, take care of your grandchildren and husband signed a senior citizen.

Unknown Speaker
The the the orientation process for an incoming Supreme Court Justice, what is it like?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, actually there isn't any. I took my the Senate voted like honor Thursday or Friday, and I was sworn in the following Monday. And after the ceremony, we went back to the conference room and started work on the summers. whole list of petitions for search a very, there was no intervening break and there is no how to do it, man. Four supreme court justices.

Unknown Speaker
So I'm trying to find out what it must have felt like at the time to be a an incoming freshman Supreme Court Justice with no one telling you what to do. And and you've said before, lots of traditions on the court are there so

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
many I mean over 200 years of doing things, certain ways, none of it written down. And I obviously stepped on a good many toes in the process of finding my way there. But people my colleagues, were very glad to have a ninth member of the court to serve with only eight members means the risk of a good many four to four decisions, because in those days, the court was very often divided five to four, it is sometimes today too, but in those days particularly, and at my very first conference on argued cases when we talked about the cases, the first case this It went from the chief justice on down by seniority. And it came to me the junior justice board for very first case. So it was very intense time. And literally the weekend before I was sworn in, I went into what was to be my chambers and stacked on the floor in that office where the secretaries have their desk were piles of the petitions for search are very related over the over several thousand of them the petition saying please take my case. This is the issue of federal law presented this is why you should take it often the petitions are fairly long, and often there are responses to the petitions. They were just all stacked up on the floor. No one in my chambers had ever worked in a Supreme Court chamber and We didn't know how it was handled. We didn't know when the conference net how it how they were discussed, what, what did you do with them? Did you put them in a notebook in order where they discussed? How did we deal with it at the discussion? I knew nothing. And it was very hard. My law clerks and I just tried to research over that weekend, how all the other chambers did their work,

Pete Williams
and none of those law clerks had been at the Supreme Court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, and we took notes and then we got back together to try to figure out what to do.

Unknown Speaker
So you have all of that all of that pressure. Plus, at the same time, the pressure of being the first woman on the US Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
How did you get through it? Well, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker
you cite a little poem in June in majesty of the law. It was of course, Potter Stewart's decision to step down. opened up an appointment for President Reagan. What is the little poem?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, there was a poem written about justice Potter Stewart, who had decided to retire and it was his vacancy, which I ended up filling. Here's the poem A toast to Potter steward. His chivalry can't be beat the first supreme court justice to give a lady his seat.

Unknown Speaker
And he literally did because in the conference room is on the back of the chairs are your names? Correct?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Not my conference room, but on the bench behind the court. But that chair is then if a justice retires, all of the other justices contribute to buy it, and it is then given to the retiring justice.

Unknown Speaker
Now, is it true that in in anticipation of your arrival, the traditional court ended the practice of referring to people as Mr. Justice so and so

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
actually, the Court made that decision before my nomination. I don't Whether there was some anticipation that they could have a woman there, perhaps there was. But before I arrived, the justice is decided to drop the Mr. Justice. It was taken off the names where the cars parked, and it was taken off the brass plates on the doors. And I became just justice. so and so.

Pete Williams
So that was one thing you didn't have to--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I didn't have to cope with that.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah. You also say something in your book that is hard to believe about what happens when you and your husband john, were somewhere and people here that Justice O'Connor is present. What is that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, well, for some time after I was on the court, we might be in a gathering or restaurant or an anything. And if somebody heard that Justice O'Connor was there, somebody would walk up to john and say how glad they were to meet the justice.

Pete Williams
It doesn't happen anymore. Does it?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I know

Pete Williams
What do you say, though when people say it's great having a woman on the Supreme Court, but when they asked about whether there is a woman's perspective on the bench or whether women decide cases differently,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm asked that so often actually. So you're not the first ass. I'm not hurt by that. And I like to say what another woman judge from Minnesota had to say, which is that at the end of the day, a wise old woman and a wise old man will reach the same decision. And I think that's true. I think that my colleague, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, basically agrees with that as well. Now, what is true is that every member of the court on any appellate court where there are only a few people participating, every member brings with them a line. Time of background and experience. And we hope that the experiences are not the same. And indeed they aren't. It's good for an appellate court if people come with different backgrounds and experiences. But that being said, I think at the end of the day, we hope we reach a consensus on a sensible answer to the issue. And I think that's generally true.

Pete Williams
By the way, you mentioned, Justice Ginsburg Did, did her arrival on the court change things for you, you are no longer

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
ever. There had been such intense media coverage of everything I did, and virtually on every case, somehow there would be a focus on it. And that's stressful. I don't think anyone likes to live their life that way. And the minute Justice Ginsburg came, the second woman that changed and then both of them became just two of the nine justices. That's the way it should be. And thankfully, that's the way it is.

Pete Williams
You mentioned the the focus from the often ill behave news media about your presence on the court. But was it was it Did you find that in the legal community as well? Were they analyzing how the first woman supreme court justice was deciding cases?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I suppose so. But you don't hear as much from them you you see it in the press rather than the legal profession as such, because we don't have all that much feedback from them, except through official means and briefs and so long.

Pete Williams
Now, you mentioned that term that is familiar one to people who understand the law but petitions for search around it, which is how you ask the Supreme Court to take that's

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
a great term. Everybody needs to know that thank you know, some attention for search America.

Pete Williams
Many people are surprised to learn that in most cases, there is no right to appeal to the US Supreme Court.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh right. Many are called but You are chosen when I they year that I went to the court in 1981. We had about 4000 petitions that year. And out of that number, we took about 150 to 60 cases. last term, we had 7500 petitions Morales, and took a little less than 100. Now, we have not made a conscious decision to take fewer. But it just has worked out that way. In part because since I've been at the court in the 19, late 1980s. Congress made our mandatory appellate jurisdiction discretionary as well. And that had been about 15% of our docket,

Pete Williams
You had to take all anti-trust cases, for example?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, we didn't. But certain categories of fields we had to take.

Pete Williams
Now. That's a lot of paperwork to read.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, there is so much reading of the

Unknown Speaker
court. roughly how many pages a day would you say a justice read

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
on the average during the term counting all a petition? Sir Sir, very all the responses, all the briefs and all the correspondence, it's about it averages 1500 pages a day. And that's a lot of homework.

Pete Williams
It is indeed. And that doesn't change for you doesn't know

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
it doesn't change no matter how experienced now, in fact, it's more because the number of petitions have grown.

Unknown Speaker
Now, if you take so few cases, how do you decide which cases to take what what criteria in general,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
we have no fixed criteria. It's a judgment call that each one has to make. And I think one of the most remarkable things about our court is that every single one of these thousands of petitions is reviewed by every one of the justices. We don't have a committee that decides what to take. We don't assign it to staff. We each individually have to make a judgment. Is this a case? I'm going to vote to review or not? And it was William Howard Taft, and you vote on every case, every window. No, I'm back to tell you how we do it. When william howard haft was chief justice. He really cared about judicial administration. He was amazing. He'd been a judge in Ohio, and he liked judging. And so he was the one who went to Congress and said, you have to give this court discretion about what cases to take until that time. We didn't have it. And the court was drowning in cases. And the Judiciary Committee said, but how do we know? The court will take the cases it should, maybe you just rather go play golf, he kind of liked play golf. And he said, Well, this is what we'll do. If you will give us that discretion, then we will agree that it only takes the vote of four of the nine justices to accept a case for review, not a majority. We've never put the rule of four in a written rule, but we follow it to this day, Congress thought it was a reasonable proposal, and it was, and to this day, if at least four of us think we should take a case. That's enough. We get these thousands of petitions any one of us can ask that a particular petition be put on a discussion list at the conference. If none of the nine think it even merits discussing, it is denied. Without further ado, we end up discussing maybe about 15% of them. And we actually talked about it. How many of you think we should take this we go around the table,

Unknown Speaker
and it has to take at least 40. And then, of course, five to win once the quarter?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Here it if you're to have a holding of the court, you need at least five,

Unknown Speaker
do you, you so you're totally reactive. You can't be a Supreme Court justice and say, I want to take that case there. I hope we get to decide that issue.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, as a legislator, I was perfectly free to look around me and say now there is a problem that we ought to be addressing in this legislature. That's something I'm concerned about, and I'm going to do something about it as a judge and as a member of the court on which I said, we can't do that. We select from the petitions that are actually filed. And we can't go in and say, gee, this is a problem we ought to solve for the country. We pick from the petitions that are filed. And it's a judgment call we make whether to take the case or not, we consider the importance of the issue of federal law that's raised. And the extent to which the lower courts, federal or state have reached conflicting holdings on that issue. And if there are conflicting holdings out there, then we're apt to eventually take a case to resolve that doesn't have to be the first one presenting the issue. If it's a genuine issue, it will crop up again. But we do find very important the extent of conflicting holdings in the lower courts.

Unknown Speaker
One question about how the court works. The court has recently a couple of occasions made audio tapes of the oral arguments available and they seem to be received with great interest. But the court does seem very disposed toward televising the argument.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, there hasn't been agreement at the court to have the arguments. televised. Things change very slowly at the court. When I joined at 1981, we had a very antiquated kind of computer setup at the court. And when Chief Justice Warren burger, who was Chief Justice when I came when he arrived as Chief Justice, the court didn't even have a copying machine. opinions were tight with eight carbon copies.

Pete Williams
And how are they printed?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
With heartland devices? You remember the process of printing where you have to pour hot land for the letters? Oh, my. And it caused delays because it was very difficult to do. Now we use computerized printing mechanisms.

Unknown Speaker
And so opinions are drafted on a computer.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, it's much easier today. Yes. With fab Not not the substance, but the mechanics are right.

Unknown Speaker
We have the West Wing, which is a program drought dramatic program about how the White House works. There have been movies made advise and consent about how things work in Congress. In just the last year or so there have been two programs that were proposed and didn't go anywhere really about

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
well, they started, right.

Pete Williams
Yes.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And happily, they fail about the Supreme Court. I was going to Yes. Why do you think that is? How? I don't know. I think it's a very difficult institution to convey in any kind of televised cereal. I mean, it just it's,

Pete Williams
it's hard to do a program about reading 1500 pages a day?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes! I mean it's boring, they're turning pages. It is essentially an academic kind of a job. I mean, we spend long, long hours reading and trying to craft opinions and writing and thinking, office work. It's not full of drama. There's some very interesting issues. And I'm curious to how they're going to turn out. I've been there. It's my 23rd year, I still can't tell you how the courts going to vote on the given issues. I'm curious to know myself, but it just isn't the high drama for television.

Pete Williams
But are there times there must be times as a justice when you are crafting a majority opinion that you know is going to get a lot of attention that must feel fairly dramatic?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it doesn't feel dramatic. It just makes you keenly aware that they're going to be many eyes reviewing it, certainly and that feelings might run deep on nation mine.

Pete Williams
Speaking of feelings, running deep other ever hard feelings after a particularly divisive case is decided on the court itself.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, there are undoubtedly feelings of disappointment. If a case turns out in a way that the particular justice thinks it shouldn't have, the justice is bound to feel a certain amount of disappointment. But I don't think it carries over. I mean, different majorities appear on different cases. And some colleague who votes in dissent on one case will vote in concurrence on the next. So time goes on, you know, you go to the next case, and happily, that's the way it is.

Pete Williams
So someone descending from you one day may be your biggest ally in the night. Yes, absolutely. There was a time when the Supreme Court tried very hard to be unanimous thinking that it was important to send a clear signal to the lower courts.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
That was certainly true in the early days of the court. The court didn't begin to get much business until about the time of john Marshall, when he became Chief Justice in the very Early 1800s appointed by john adams, and the court was smaller than he, he had six members. Not even an odd number. And he thought it was very important that the court be unanimous in those early years. I think it probably was. There was no tradition at that point in time of constitutionalism. In fact, it wasn't even clear that the court could declare a law passed by Congress unconstitutional. It wasn't explicit in the Constitution. And it was in Marbury vs. Madison, authored by john Marshall himself, that the court first so held, and it was maybe 25 years or more before the next law was found unconstitutional. So this wasn't a common practice. But in those early years, Marshall thought that the court spoke with a stronger voice if it was you unanimous and I think that's right. And another Chief Judge where

Pete Williams
there's some justices who would who would vote one way, even though they didn't really feel that way.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Occasionally there would be a dissent in the marshal years, he served as Chief Justice over 30 years, and there were a few descents but not many. And he would offer to write most of the opinions. And during his years on the court, he did write most of America heats. They talked about the cases, they only sat in Washington, maybe a month or two a year. And the rest of the time they were writing the circuit. They lived in a boarding house very near where the court is today. And they'd sit around the boarding house, talk about the cases and reach a consensus. And he'd say, Well, I'd be glad to try to write it if you want to. And they'd all say, Fine, you do that. And he did.

Pete Williams
By the way. I wonder if you can answer a question about an odd custom that the court has that every court actually has. There is everyone in the Supreme Court to hear the Supreme Court come in, it's not my accent. They all know where they are. And yet outcomes the marshal and says, lawyer, all persons having business before the Supreme Court or the

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
court are honest to draw their attention. Our attention for the court is now setting pain.

Pete Williams
And why, where does that is that from these days when they

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I think it started in Great Britain years ago, this isn't new.

Unknown Speaker
So it's not from it's not from the time when the US Supreme Court would be meeting and know. And they would announce that we're not going to start

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
one of the common law traditions.

Pete Williams
What is the value, then, of a dissent?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Over time at the Supreme Court, the practice emerged of occasionally having dissenting opinions. And in our court, if a dissent is written, it is then published, just like the opinion for the court, you know, in most High Courts around the world, this Ending opinions are not published. They may have as many disagreements as we do, and indeed they do. But you won't read a dissent in most high court's their swallowed the dissent will be silent. And in our court, the practice began to emerge of writing and publishing dissenting views. When William Howard Taft became Chief Justice in the 1920s, he was another Chief Justice who felt strongly the court should be unanimous as often as possible. He worked very hard on his colleagues to try to produce unanimity in the court. And he did a pretty good job. Then percentages went way down of the numbers of cases when there's a descent. He was succeeded as Chief Justice by Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes and Chief Justice Hughes thought that dissenting opinion had value. He thought that having it demonstrated to the nation as a whole to the to the people reading the opinions that the court had given careful consideration to the arguments on both sides, and had fairly considered all those arguments and making its judgment. And he thought there was value in that. And the court through the years seems to have taken the Hughes view. And certainly when I came to the court, it seemed to be common ground, that in a high percentage of the cases there would be a dissent. And just as the majority opinion is assigned by the Chief Justice or the most senior justice and the majority, so to the dissenting opinion, if there is one is assigned by the most senior justice in the dissenting camp, and I hadn't really been aware of that when I came to the court. But it's quite standard practice to have to sense these days. And indeed, the court is unanimous only about a third of the time.

Pete Williams
Sometimes the language in a part of it isn't just to being accustomed to the law and people who aren't and pick up an opinion even if it's the majority opinion you have, you can't just waffle you have to say I'm sorry, you're wrong. So there's a certain amount of forcefulness even to a majority opinion. But sometimes the language in the sense can get rather muscular.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, it can. I mean, these are nine pretty skilled craftsman in judicial business, and people with very good intellects and people who, having thought through a problem may become firmly persuaded that their analysis is the proper analysis. SS and if it isn't accepted by the colleagues, this can produce some pretty tough language and opinions sometimes. But I don't think that's carried over in the personal relations of the justices. And indeed, I think I've been so blessed. In the years I've been there by having a very collegial court.

Pete Williams
Some of the courts decisions in divisive cases remain controversial. You mentioned Brown versus Board of Education, the school desegregation case several times and majesty of the law, Roe vs. Wade, the more recent example. And yet, public confidence in the Supreme Court remains strong. Why is that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
That's hard to say. You know, we've had a lot of years of experience now. Our Constitution has been in effect longer than any other constitution around the world. And I think the American people have grown Except the role of the court in deciding constitutional issues and have tended to accept the notion of constitutionalism, if you will, and that we have a court that has assumed this role and a notion that it's going to be accepted. It's so remarkable how the other branches of government have accepted the role of the court as well. And you have to look back at the Brown versus Board of Education decision. And it's succeeding years when there were court orders, ordering specific schools to be integrated. Do you remember the high school Little Rock Central High School when a court order came down ordering that high school to be integrated, and the governor said no, and sent officials of the state to bar young black students from entering the high school. And President Eisenhower who was not enthusiastic about Brown versus Board of Education at all, perhaps didn't agree with it at all, nevertheless sent federal troops to compel the integration of that high school to support the court order. I mean, that's remarkable. And I think that's been that tradition in our country for enough years now. That it's pretty well accepted.

Pete Williams
But there was a time in the courts history wasn't wasn't there when the Supreme Court decision might not be so easily and yes,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I think it takes time. And, you know, I often have opportunities to visit with justices from other countries, and certainly a good many of the newly emerging states and Central and Eastern Europe. And the judges there so often ask, how can we reach the point where our citizens will accept our role as judges. And I have to say that I tell them, it may take a long time and years of experience before that happens. It's

Pete Williams
like the old gag about how do you get to Carnegie Hall practice?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, yes.

Pete Williams
You, you write that the Supreme Court in recent years has given a more expansive interpretation of the 11th Amendment, which is probably one that most Americans might not what is the 11th amendment?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it's the one that expresses the notion that citizens of one state can't sue another state in federal court, or even their own state and federal court, unless the state has given up at sovereign immunity and said that's okay. And this was a pretty strongly held view at the time of its adoption and through the year The Supreme Court has given a starting many, many years ago a pretty expansive interpretation of the 11th. amendment, the protection of the sovereign immunity of states from suit in federal court without the state's consent. And in recent decades, we have seen the Congress of the United States enact a good many laws establishing some right of recovery, financial recovery from states in lawsuits brought by the citizens for a variety of things. The Disabilities Act or the family violence act or whatever it might be, areas in which until recently, Congress had not legislated before, much less provided a cause of action in damages. And so those decisions have ended up causing the court because of splits of authority and the lower courts to have to consider it the 11th amendment issue.

Pete Williams
You mentioned in the majesty of the law, you write about the importance of the jury system. And of course, you were a judge in Arizona before you were adjusted on the Supreme Court. So you've had a lot of experience with juries, you have some suggestions for making juries more effective. For example, you say jurors ought to be able to take notes. Yes. Why is that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I, myself, like to try to remember things by making notes of it. Perhaps many other people feel the same way. But I find that I do a better job if I'm going to have to make a decision, even listening to arguments in court, taking a certain number of notes about it. in the courtroom. When I was a trial court judge, I would take notes during the trial of testimony to help me recall and identify certain points And I think many jurors are the same way not everyone wants to take notes. But if someone does, I think they should be allowed to do it. I think that jurors should be given clear instructions in simple language on what the law is in the case that will guide them in listening to their testimony. I think the instructions ought to be given at the beginning of the case and the end. I think they should be given the instructions and writing as well as orally. And I think jurors should be allowed to give messages to the judge who can share it with the attorney saying, we think you should ask certain questions along these lines, then let the attorneys do what they will with it, but to keep the jurors totally isolated. Tell them they can't take notes. They can't hear the instructions until the end. I mean, that just makes their work harder.

Pete Williams
What happened when you were a judge in Arizona And you asked the lawyers to drop their jury instructions before the case came to

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
throw in a civil in civil cases, I formed the practice of asking the lawyers in the case to prepare the jury instructions 10 days or more in advance of the trial date, so that we could meet and discuss them and see which ones we were going to use. And I found that it was so difficult very often for the lawyers to do that in these civil cases, that they've managed to settle a case before the trial ever started.

Pete Williams
You been an elected judge elected in Arizona, you know, an appointed justice on the US Supreme Court. Should judges be elected.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I served in Arizona, where when Arizona became a state, it was pretty much a populous state, Arizona when it first drafted its constitution to be admitted to the union included provisions for the Recall of judges and other public officials. And I think, Frank, I think Theodore Roosevelt was president at the time and he said, I won't sign this bill making Arizona state with that provision in there. And so the drafters of Arizona's constitution took it out. And the President signed the statehood bill, and the next day, the Arizona legislators went into session and put it back in, then it was too late to do anything about it. And they value the right to have parties on elections of judges. And when I was in the state legislature, I did a lot of research on the US I thought that we weren't getting perhaps the best possible people on the bench under this system, and that we should consider a Missouri type plan for initial appointment of judges with periodic retention elections, let people vote on whether to keep the judge or not but one of my With an initial appointment process, and I could not get it out of the house of representatives in Arizona, so I drafted an initiative petition, Arizona allows initiative measures.

Pete Williams
You did this as a member of the legislature?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes. and formed a good committee and we got it on the ballot and had a good committee work on it. And in the very same year that I ran for trial judge for the first time, the proposition was on the ballot and it by a narrow margin. It passed and Arizona went to the Missouri type plan for selection of judges. And I lived there long enough to see the difference in the composition of the judiciary in Arizona. And indeed, I was appointed to the court of appeals under the new system. And the judges are of higher quality than we had under the old system. I was really thrilled to see them movement. And it surprises me that more states have not gone to that system. Because it does not deprive the voters of the right to vote. It makes the vote more meaningful. I think when you vote whether to retain someone or not,

Pete Williams
why do you think the judges turned out to be better under the appointment and retention system?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, I just think that it's awfully hard for a voter in a partisan election to be able to adequately assess the qualities that it takes to be a good judge under a partisan election system.

Pete Williams
You were asked a question when you were at the University of Louisville law school about whether you whether other justices, but particularly to you whether you go back and look at the opinions that you wrote, when you first came on the court and say to yourself, what was I thinking Do you ever do that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I really don't. From my days as a judge in Arizona to the present. I simply made a conscious decision that I was going going to do the very best I possibly could to resolve each case. I'm sure I'm not always right. But I try to be and I put as much effort in front end as I can make a decision. And I don't look back.

Pete Williams
Is that one of the ethics Do you think from the lazy be?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh gosh, I don't know I guess on the lazy be you do want to look around and see if you're making some mistakes you can correct. But I don't think that's a very good practice for a judge. You could have some pretty unhappy times if you did that.

Pete Williams
Justice O'Connor. Thank you very much.