Note: At the time this interview was conducted, the Sandra Day O'Connor Institute was known as "O'Connor House." The organization's name was changed in 2015.

Lucia Howard
Lucia Fakonas Howard. October 28, 1914--1914, 2014! (laughs) 1914.

O'Connor House
Alright, so Lucia, tell us about the first time you met Sandra Day O'Connor.

Lucia Howard
I believe the first time I actually met her was at a meeting of the Arizona Women Lawyers Association, which was yet to be formed. It was 1976. And I and maybe two or three other women had come from out of state. I had lived here, you know, before, but I had gone to school out of state to practice law. And we were really surprised that there was no Women's Bar, there was no women's section of the Arizona Bar, we were told that the Arizona Bar didn't want a women's section of the Arizona Bar. And so we decided to invite all of the women lawyers that we could find, to have lunch to talk about, shouldn't we have some kind of a women's association? And we invited Justice O'Connor, who was not on the Supreme Court, obviously, then. We invited a couple other women, jurists, we invited a number of women lawyers, and out of all of that, we all fit into the back room of a Chinese restaurant on Camelback and 16th Street.

And we talked about how we would get started in having an organization where, not that the law practice was any different, but it, we were such a minority in the practicing bar, that it was just good to be able to meet every once in a while and talk about things that we were encountering.

And Justice O'Connor was one of our first members to show up. And she regaled us with these stories about what it was like when she graduated from law school and tried to get a job. What she told us made us look like we were like, in the pink, we had nothing to complain about. Because she told us that she came to Arizona. She was, I believe second in her class, graduating from Stanford. I guess there's a little debate among a couple people at Stanford as to their ranking. But she was way up there. And she came, no private firms were hiring women. The only job offer she could get at private firms was a job offer as a secretary, which she was clearly overqualified. So she went into the public sector, and there were not any positions available at the time. And she saw a space, and I believe it was the prosecutor's office. She saw a space available on the floor next to one of the secretaries' desks. And she went in and asked if she could take that space even if they didn't pay her. And then, when a paying job became available, she knew that she'd be up for a paying position. And I think that is actually how she got her first job in the public sector. And I think she continued in the public sector for a long time until she started her own firm. So even though her husband, John, was a major partner at a major Arizona firm, she was not getting a job.

O'Connor House
So you were in the back of a Chinese restaurant, which was probably Toy's. Was it Toy's?

Lucia Howard
It's the one that's on 16th Street and Camelback, it's changed several different--

O'Connor House
That was the Toy family, but...So tell us about, so you've met her. And do you recall any of the other women who were there?

Lucia Howard
Oh, yeah. Charlene Greer, Paula Hillby, Roxanna Bacon. I'm sure there are a few others that I know, but I, they're not on the tip of my tongue. But it was still the same women lawyers that, we remained friends for the next 40 years. And even the justices who were then on Arizona courts, and Mary Schroeder then went to the Ninth Circuit. Justice O'Connor, of course, went to the Supreme Court. They still remained friends. And so when Justice O'Connor was appointed to the Supreme Court, we were also in a group called Charter 100. And everybody got together. And because Reagan had appointed her, we all put together this huge jar of colored jelly beans to send to her for her desk in Washington. And she kept it on her desk for a really long time. So the women lawyers were few, but bonded in those early experiences.

O'Connor House
So in the 70s, she would have been with, she's still in the Senate?

Lucia Howard
I believe so, yes.

O'Connor House
And then subsequent to that she was on the Court of Appeals. Yes. So during that time, you're still having interaction. So tell us about the reaction amongst the women lawyers and maybe even Charter 100, the reaction when President Reagan nominated her.

Lucia Howard
We were thrilled. I don't think we were as surprised as she was. Because she was a phenomenal jurist, but also a phenomenal person. And at the time, they were looking for a candidate for the Supreme Court that could really have the respect of both parties, and have the respect of leadership in Congress to get the appointment approved. And she was a perfect candidate because she did not have a huge track record of decisions one way or another, because as you know, Congress tends to take those out of context at nomination hearings. But her skills were strong, her written opinions were strong. She was a moderate Republican, not extreme on any of the positions. And so she was really a perfect candidate for the time.

O'Connor House
So now fast forward through the years. She's in Washington. Did you have interaction, or was she in Washington most of the time before she came back to Arizona? Tell us about that period.

Lucia Howard
Well, while she was on the Supreme Court, I did not have a lot of communication with her. We did, through Charter 100 from time to time, have her come back and speak to Charter 100. We sent her the jelly beans, we had a proclamation issued. So we did a few things to keep in contact with her, but I didn't have any personal interaction with her much on the Supreme Court. But when she came back from the Supreme Court was when I got to know her again, and I renewed that acquaintance in a way that I never anticipated. Paula Hillby had gotten involved with a group of people to move Justice O'Connor's home that was scheduled for demolition. And she asked me to come to a meeting of women to discuss a new grant that the Avon Foundation was going to grant. At that time, there was no organization to grant it to. So actually, we were still working with the Rio Salado Foundation. And so, the purpose of the meeting was to talk about how these funds would be used, what Justice O'Connor saw as a future organization to be housed in O'Connor House, and just to kind of toss around some ideas. So I said, "Sure." I think it was on a Saturday morning or something. And so I come in, and I'm totally surprised by the fact that Justice O'Connor has already decided what we're going to do with this $250,000 that the Avon Foundation granted. And she said she wants to put it towards domestic violence. And so, I knew nothing about domestic violence. I had never had a case in domestic violence, I never practiced criminal law, I never had any civil cases, you know, divorce or anything like that.

She had already decided that she wanted to use the Avon Foundation grant to work on domestic violence, because at that time the foundation had given the grant to start the Avon Program for Women and Justice at O'Connor House. And Justice O'Connor had decided, because it was one of Avon's key missions in their foundation, that we would work on domestic violence. And there were, in the room, a number of people who did have experience about domestic violence, but I wasn't one of them. And I had never practiced criminal law. I had never had, you know, civil law, divorces or custody or anything that would bring that to my, to the forefront of my mind. So I was listening to what a lot of people had to say, and at some point in the meeting, Kim Sterling Heflin was introduced to me, who I had never met also, and told that she was going to be heading up this grant from the Avon Foundation. And so, she was a wonderful person and I really enjoyed meeting her, but that was about all I thought about it.

During the meeting, I can't remember what the topic was, but Justice O'Connor turns to me, in the middle of, you know, probably 50 people in the room, and says, "Lucia, I'd like you to co-chair this." I was like, totally taken aback because, one, I knew nothing about the subject, and two, I didn't even think she still remembered my name. But what are you going to say when there are 50 people in the room, and the ex-Supreme Court Justice from Arizona is asking you to co chair something? "Of course, I will, Justice O'Connor." And then Kim and I sat together and sat in numerous meetings with different people to try to bring ourselves up to speed on domestic violence in Arizona and to find out where the gaps were.

Because Justice O'Connor was very clear. She wanted to help victims. She did not want to provide services. She wanted to add value to the system, which was a perfectly legitimate goal. And so at the beginning, I think a lot of the stakeholders already involved were a little dubious about what our role would be, because we weren't, you know, we weren't players in that game. And so they had never really dealt with us before or seen us before. O'Connor House was just getting formed. There wasn't even a real organization at the time. And they were afraid that maybe we were going to come in and try to, you know, dictate what should be done with respect to domestic violence, which was clearly never Justice O'Connor's goal. Justice O'Connor, from the very beginning, believed that our value added to the process was that we were able to bring stakeholders together, recognize where there were differences and where they were in agreement, figure out where the gaps were, where maybe we could add some value, and then come up with a game plan. How could we add value? Was it to bring more resources? Was it to get people talking to each other? And it turned out that it was all of the above. And so, the whole driving force behind the Avon program and, now, the pillar at O'Connor House, which is social justice, was, how can O'Connor House bring stakeholders together to solve important problems that are often at gridlock? Especially in Arizona. And so, that's what we've been doing. And we have truly enjoyed it. And I think we have made a difference.

O'Connor House
So, from, as you know, kind of an architect of the program and deploying the pieces and parts outside of services. How did you determine the gaps? And walk us through that, and how did you bring those stakeholders together?

Lucia Howard
We use what we call "the O'Connor method." Whether it was really the O'Connor method or not, we don't know, but that's what we've always called it and we're sticking to it. We first invited people both separately and in groups to just talk to us, tell us what they were seeing in the field, tell us where they thought the strengths and weaknesses were, where they were having problems cooperating with agencies. Because a big social problem like domestic violence requires every level of government, every level of law enforcement to work together. And what we were hearing over and over again is that, that's the one big area that, that there's a roadblock. There was a lot of territorialism, logically, because there were such limited resources. And everyone was kind of put in a pit to fight over the same resources. And so there wasn't really an organization that stepped back and said, "Okay, let's see how we can leverage the resources there are and not reinvent the wheel, not duplicate efforts, and maybe get some new resources in, including the private sector," which has always been a donor to domestic violence issues but has never really been a leader in domestic violence issues.

So we, you know, asked the question, "What would Justice O'Connor do?" And Justice O'Connor would invite people over, over lunch or in small groups or in large groups, and start listening. So that's what we did. And it took almost a year. I then put together a survey for all of the different people that we had met with, to rank, what were the needs that they thought were the highest, and what were the roles that they thought O'Connor House could play in meeting those needs? And from that, we narrowed it down to, I believe, five areas that we were going to focus on where we thought we can make a difference. And then we broke up into small committees, which wrote, basically white papers on those five areas to say, "Here are the gaps, and here are the things that we think could be done, and this is what needs to happen in order for this to be successful." And then we set out with an advisory group of about 50 individuals and organizations to work on that agenda. Slowly, one by one, we just figured out a game plan for each issue.

O'Connor House
So what were the five areas of focus?

Lucia Howard
I knew you were gonna ask me that. One of them had to do with protective orders, because we were all really shocked and appalled, especially Justice O'Connor, to learn that the way protective orders were issued and served in Arizona, involved the victim finding the abuser and leading the police to him. Which put the victim in a really dangerous situation, especially if she had just left the situation, which is often when somebody gets a protective order. So that was one area. Another area was to look at technology and how we might use technology to bring the different levels of services. For example, we didn't have a coordinated intake system. We're still working on that, but we're a lot further ahead than we used to be. So technology was another one. Legislation was an area. Are there places where we could either introduce legislation or support legislation? And we've been pretty successful at helping the coalition and other groups that have actually prepared the legislation or the drafts, lobby with them, and, and get support from legislators, and have had a number of things passed.

I'm trying to think of the other two.

O'Connor House
Sex trafficking and [inaudible].

Lucia Howard
Well, it's interesting because I was going through my files and I ran across a memo that I wrote to Justice O'Connor and the O'Connor House in 2008. Because I had just come off of an ad hoc committee that the city of Phoenix had formed. And we had written and passed the first piece of legislation in Arizona dealing with what's now called child trafficking, which at the time was called child prostitution. And it was clear that that was an issue that was going to be at the forefront, but had not yet come into people's consciousness. So I had proposed it as one of the issues that we take on from the beginning. But the Avon Foundation did not want to get into that issue, not because it wasn't worthy, but because it wasn't one of the areas they were working in. And there wasn't yet enough visibility for the issue, where we could get a core of people to say, "Yes, we should take that on."

But it never really left our minds. And so as things came up, we kind of put it into the "to be considered" program. And what we did is, we narrowed it down to three areas of minor sex trafficking. Because again, look at the gaps, what can O'Connor House uniquely do to fill the gaps? So the three areas that we focused on were legislation, which we were finally successful this year to get the legislation that we had wanted, not perfect, but much better than it was before. The training of hotel/motel, and the Backpage.com and other publications or Internet sites that were basically the purveyors of a lot of the trafficking. So we discussed those over the years, but there hadn't been a real opportunity to do anything. And then we hired Jill Faber to come and help us on some of the domestic violence projects. And also, O'Connor House helped to subsidize her contract. And we asked her to take those three issues and go into the community and figure out how we could make them happen. And she was very successful, especially with the faith groups, in finding private volunteers, especially on the hotel/motel program. There were two gentlemen that were totally motivated. And so, they really started the nuts and bolts of putting it in the field. And we tried to assist them where we can, where we could. And then when they stepped down, you know, O'Connor House took the lead on that project. So it's been brewing since 2008. But it finally came to fruition in about 2012.

O'Connor House
So in addition to doing that, you played a leadership role with O'Connor House, on the board, you were the chairman.

Lucia Howard
Yes, I was President.

O'Connor House
So tell us, walk us through that time. How did you become involved on the board level, and, talk about your, your leadership and the, what was on your watch?

Lucia Howard
Well, at first because of Justice O'Connor's request, I agreed to co-chair the women and justice program at the time. But I was not on the board. And I resisted going on the board because it was a new organization. I'm a lawyer, we're always paranoid about new organizations and what the liability is going to be and how much time it's going to take. And so finally, it was Paula and Kim who convinced me to come on the board. And then three months later, I was elected to be President of O'Connor House, which, needless to say, I was not quite prepared for that role.

At the time that I took over, which was just after Kim--Kim was the first President, CEO, we didn't really have titles, exactly, at the time, but President. And we discovered some real nuts and bolts things. For example, O'Connor House had no rights to the O'Connor house. It didn't own O'Connor house. It didn't have a lease of O'Connor house. It didn't have the right to use O'Connor house. It didn't have a key to O'Connor house. And so, that was one of the first things we tackled. And that took over a year to finally get done. But now, luckily, the Rio Salado Foundation was very generous and helpful. And we reached an agreement, and we took over the operation of O'Connor house.

So the first year, I had this long list of things that we were going to accomplish. And members of the board kept telling me, "No, no, you're too much in the weeds, you need to get up to the 30,000 foot level, and you need to look at the big things that O'Connor House could do." And it's not that I disagreed with them. Yes, we definitely needed to do that. But first, somebody had to pay the bills. There was nobody authorized to sign checks, there was no bookkeeper keeping track of any of the contributions that we got. So we were a ways off from the 30,000 foot level, which I'm really happy to say that we have now reached. And thanks to Sarah and a number of other people on the board, we can now look at, "What can O'Connor House be?" Because we have a way to pay the bills. And we have access to O'Connor house and a number of other things. We didn't have a mailbox. We were using space in the Historical Museum. And we were piling three or four people into one little office, which is what we had available. And so, there were a lot of nuts and bolts things that needed to be done in that year. And that's mainly what I focused on. But luckily after that year, Steve Savage--well, no first, Jose Cardenas. First Jose and then Steve Savage. So hopefully, we were able to build a little bit of a foundation for them so that they could then move the organization higher and higher, to that 30,000 foot level.

O'Connor House
So how did O'Connor House get the keys?

Lucia Howard
We entered into a long-term lease with the Rio Salado Foundation. And it's interesting because we had a number of board members make attempts at, you know, getting this done. And we would make steps towards getting it done. But we never quite had the rights to O'Connor house. And Mike Rooney, I think, at the Rio Salado Foundation made the difference, because Paula Hillby and I negotiated directly with Mike. And Mike was on the board of the Rio Salado Foundation. And so, he was able to cut through a lot of layers of stuff. And everybody's goal was the same, but their mechanisms for getting there were all different. But we felt very strongly that O'Connor house needed to be in the control of O'Connor House, and that Justice O'Connor was the key to O'Connor house. You know, not any city, not any park, not any organization. So we spent a lot of time working on that.

O'Connor House
So, were you involved in the forgiveness of the debt?

Lucia Howard
Yes, but I think the people most responsible for the forgiveness of the, the last forgiveness of the debt--we've had a couple forgivenesses of debt--but the last forgiveness of the debt, which I think was the last hundred thousand dollars, I can't remember if that's the exact number, two of the board members during the year that I was President went and had a sit-down meeting. And I don't know whether they begged, cajoled. You know, they rose to a higher power, and the Rio Salado Foundation agreed for that last little bit.

O'Connor House
So let's go back to Sandra Day O'Connor. You've known her for many decades. So what is, is there a most enduring memory or a most impactful moment that you had with Justice O'Connor?

Lucia Howard
I think there are some personal moments that I've had with Justice O'Connor that meant a lot to me. And then there are some other moments with Justice O'Connor, which I think reflect her personality and her tenacity and her character that would resonate with a lot of people. The personal ones, to me, had to do with those early days. When the women lawyers were, there was no woman partner, anywhere in the city of Phoenix and I don't even know, anywhere in the state of Arizona, at a major private firm. There had been women hired. But in my firm, I was the only woman for 10 years. And so, they were few and far between.

It was very discouraging to go into a firm and love the people. And, and they were very, very supportive of me. I have nothing but good things to say about my associates and then, later, partners. But they didn't understand that life is different if you have a woman partner. And I'll give you a small example. The partners' meetings were always held at the Men's Grill at the Phoenix Country Club. When I was first made partner, there was this big realization, I couldn't go to a partner's meeting. So how do you handle that? And not having it at the, at the country club was not the first thing that came to mind. Let's just say that. And it was moments like that, when people like Justice O'Connor and some of the other women who had been lawyers for a while and had thicker skins than I did were very helpful, because they just said, "That's what change is about. And you're just going to have to take your knocks like we did, and things will get better." And of course they did.

O'Connor House
So having been involved from the earliest days of O'Connor House, and having served on the board and a lot of different leadership roles, where do you think the opportunity is for O'Connor House? Kind of, now that you can see that 30,000 feet, and you've helped get it to the 30,000 feet, where do you see it 20 years from now? 30 years from now, where do you see O'Connor House?

Lucia Howard
I think that in order for our O'Connor House to remain viable, I think that we have to add value to the community, locally and nationally. And I think that's a very hard thing to do. Because it's, it's, for example, we have a speaker series, which everyone loves. But it will be very hard without Justice O'Connor's direct participation, to keep up that level of speakers. And so, 20 years from now, I'm hoping Justice O'Connor is still around, but in the event that she's not, we're going to need to be able to show the community nationally and in Arizona that we have something to offer that no one else has to offer.

And I believe what we have to offer is that process, the "O'Connor process," which can be put to work in a lot of different substantive areas. We've looked at some things in immigration, we're looking at some things in election law. I see us doing that on the local level, but also on the national level. Because right now, I don't believe there's an organization that has the kind of credibility that O'Connor House has, that's leading people into conciliation. All the leaders are leading people into diversity and chaos. I'd like Justice O'Connor's legacy, while she's still very active in O'Connor House, to be to reach out to a number of those feuding factions and really bring them together. Maybe in Arizona. Maybe Congress needs to come here for a while and have a sabbatical. And I think that's the role that O'Connor House can and should play.

O'Connor House
I just had dinner with her last night, and Steve Savage was there. We [inaudible] talked about that..Aspen Institute Chautauqua in winter, to have a version of that here.

Lucia Howard
And you know the difference, though, that I think we can do, even past an Aspen Institute--and I'm not an expert in think tanks or Institutes--but what I see is that a lot of those organizations are still top down. They bring in important speakers to tell about their experiences, and that is helpful to people. But what we found in the justice projects, it's not nearly as helpful as listening to people. Not the big name speakers, not the, you know, published authors, the people who every day fight these battles, day in and day out, whether they be public sector or private sector. I think it's that kind of a forum that O'Connor House can bring together. And I think that that O'Connor House, especially if Justice O'Connor is personally involved, nobody says no to Justice O'Connor. So Justice O'Connor says, "Sit down until you figure out a solution." And people will sit down and figure out a solution. And I think that's what we need to do.

O'Connor House
So, knowing your history and your familiarity with the Justice on so many levels, where, what what do you consider is her greatest contribution, if you could articulate that?

Lucia Howard
I think her greatest contribution was identified at an early strategy session we had on branding the organization. We did all these exercises to come up with one word that encapsulized what O'Connor House and what Justice O'Connor's legacy was, and that word was "trust." So I think the greatest thing that she will be remembered for is being able to be an impartial broker. Bringing people together, having all parties trust her motivation and trust her process and trust her judgment, and come to solutions that they wouldn't have otherwise come to. And I know that I probably should say it's something on the Supreme Court. And I'm, you know, I'm sure there are a number of opinions that I could point to, as we all know, that have had national significance. But in the end, I don't think it will be those opinions that we hold in high regard. It will be our valuing of her character, our valuing of her being a trailblazer, being a cowgirl that got to the Supreme Court, being a woman who couldn't find a job as a secretary, who ended up on the Supreme Court. I think those are the enduring characteristics and values that Justice O'Connor will leave as her legacy.

O'Connor House
So is there anything else that you'd like to add or that you'd like others to know? About Sandra Day O'Connor? Any memories of things where you, just just really were impactful between the two of you, or anything? You've said a lot of great things.

Lucia Howard
Well, the one one memory, I'll repeat the one memory about myself only because I don't know how much of it got recorded. But the one memory about myself that I will remember is that when I became a partner in my law firm, and I was the only woman partner for almost 10 years, it was very discouraging, because I would have all of the female secretaries and paralegals come to me as the shop steward. And then I would have to go to partners' meetings and fill that stereotypical role of standing up for the women, because they really didn't feel like they could stand up for themselves. They weren't partners in the firm. They weren't even associates in the firm. And so I became the shop steward. And that was very difficult for me, because I wanted to be one of the partners. I wanted to be one of the guys. And I couldn't do both very successfully at the same time.

So I think I talked to Justice O'Connor about that once and about, kind of, that role of fitting in and yet, being able to be true to your values and represent the things that you thought were important. And she, basically, in her cowgirl wisdom said, "Buck it up." She didn't say those words. But that's basically what she was saying. She was saying that, you know, all the women that came before me had to go through that. I have to go through that, and I have to make it better for the next generation of women lawyers. And so that personally meant a lot to me.

One public thing that I think just came to mind, that just speaks to Justice O'Connor's real intellect and her sharp mind. We were at a presentation that was a question and answer forum. And I can't remember if it was at ASU, or it was somewhere that people were asked from the audience. And it was a law-related issue. So people were asked, from the audience, to ask questions, and they were not questions that were screened ahead of time. There were microphones in the audience. And I remember that a woman who had an accent, so was probably from South America, came to the podium and introduced herself and said, she wanted to know why the American Supreme Court did not put any weight on the jurisprudence of other countries. And she said other countries always cite Supreme Court decisions as precedent for their decisions in their countries. And she brought some example, I believe about Chile, and a decision that they were either making or had just made. Justice O'Connor, totally unrehearsed and unprepared, off the top of her head rattled off to this young woman issues that were in the Chilean constitution that, of course, distinguished their jurisprudence from our system. Now, how many people could fill that role? I remember that that impressed me tremendously. I think it impressed the questioner as well.

O'Connor House
Incredible. Anything else you want to say?

Lucia Howard
Well, I've lost some of my Democratic--I'm proud to say I have been criticized by my own party, because I've come over to the O'Connor House, which was viewed largely as a conservative institution. And have been very happy and proud to learn that, true to our ideals. O'Connor House is a moderate organization, Justice O'Connor is a moderate jurist and a moderate political voice. And although we may disagree on a number of issues, I totally respect what she stands for, and what she's brought to Arizona and the nation. And I really hope that O'Connor House can take that to the next level, because I think the country needs it.