Sandra Day O'Connor
It is so nice to welcome Congressman Ed Pastor today in the O'Connor House.

Ed Pastor
Well, thank you very much.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Now, you grew up in the Globe, Arizona area.

Ed Pastor
Actually, I'm a Miami guy. The Globe guys were, you know, the Tigers were, they were our rivals. I was a Miami Vandal.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Alright.

Ed Pastor
That's where I grew up.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Okay, well that's good. And you ended up going to university at Arizona State, didn't you?

Ed Pastor
Yes, I did. Became a Sun Devil, from a Vandal to a Sun Devil.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And a little law school time, too, right?

Ed Pastor
Well, I had been out of school for about 10 years. And I needed a higher degree just because of personal desire. And at that time, I was working in Guadalupe, Arizona. I was working with a Guadalupe organization, I was working with the seasonal farm workers and the migrant farm workers there. And a friend of mine, Jim Murtowski, said, "Why don't you apply to ASU? They're looking for Hispanics, and I'm sure that ..." So I took the LSAT, and I did well enough to enter. And so I went to law school. I spent three years in law school like any other student. I was married, and I had a daughter, so that meant I had to work a little bit. So I don't have the highest grades from a law school graduate.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, nobody looks back at that.

Ed Pastor
I didn't make moot court. (Laughs)

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's alright. It's okay.

Ed Pastor
But, you know what, I never took the bar, because I got involved—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, you didn't?

Ed Pastor
I didn't take the bar because I was involved in politics at that time. I got involved in the political scene.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What was your first political position?

Ed Pastor
Well, actually I have always had an interest in politics. In Miami, George Washington Elementary, I was, you know, involved in class president, and then in high school.

Sandra Day O'Connor
As early as elementary school, we could see this developing. Isn't that fun?

Ed Pastor
Well, maybe it was just in my genes. I think it's in my DNA.

Sandra Day O'Connor
How about that.

Ed Pastor
And then in high school, at ASU. So when I was a student at ASU, I worked some of the campaigns, and probably people that you may have known. Tony Abril, who was a representative from South Phoenix [in the Arizona legislature], Bernardo Calderon. There were people from South Phoenix that were running at the state legislature. Politics was always ingrained in me a little bit. And so after my graduation, I was working on my brother's campaign, who was running for JP.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What did he run for?

Ed Pastor
It was Justice of the Peace in Phoenix. He was a young man.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, so politics ran in the family a little bit.

Ed Pastor
Well, I think so, I think it was in the DNA in the family.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Must have been.

Ed Pastor
So he got elected as Justice of the Peace, he won in the primary in September. Then Governor Castro was running at the same time. So they asked me to join his campaign, which I did. So this was in '74.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Then did you ever work for Governor Castro at any point?

Ed Pastor
The answer is yes. What happened was that my brother got elected in '75, he took position as a JP. And my brother was killed in a car accident.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, I didn't know that.

Ed Pastor
So at that time, it was not the right time for me to study for the bar.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh dear, no. How sad.

Ed Pastor
And so the governor offered me a position in his administration, because by then I wasn't looking do the bar. And so I worked with his administration. I did work for the governor.

Sandra Day O'Connor
So what was your first elective office?

Ed Pastor
Well, in '76, Joe Eddie Lopez, who was the county supervisor, decided to run for Congress. And that's the same election that Tony Galbadon, Bob Stump, they all ran in a primary. When Joe Eddie decided to run for the congressional seat, I told the governor that I was going to run for the supervisor seat, and launched the campaign.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And it worked.

Ed Pastor
It did. It was very, very interesting. Now, sometimes as politicians or wannabe politicians, we have, you know, the ego in the DNA. And so I remember I was going to announce to the world that here I am, ready to launch my campaign for county supervisor. So I called a press conference.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Did anybody show?

Ed Pastor
No. (Laughs)

Sandra Day O'Connor
(Laughs) I can picture that, in some of these low-level things. I don't think they would have shown up for me, either.

Ed Pastor
I said, "Well, if they're not going to come to me, I'm going to go to them." And so I went, and—

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's what you have to do.

Ed Pastor
That's what I did. I went to different radio stations. And TV, obviously, was gonna be beyond my reach, but I stopped by at the radio stations and introduced myself, and left a press release.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good. Well in those days there wasn't that much television coverage, that came a little later. You came to the forefront in Arizona when you succeeded Congressman Mo Udall. He was a remarkably effective legislator, I thought.

Ed Pastor
Well, he was. I mean, one of the fears that I had, you had gigantic shoes to fill. I have to tell you something. When Pat Connor, who was my Republican opponent, he was a supervisor from Yuma, and I was the nominee for the Democrats. At the time, the editor of The Arizona Republic in an editorial said how disappointed she was because she had two people that would probably never measure up to the legacy. And we never, and we haven't. But at least with some pride, I think that Mo would be proud of some of the work that I've done, and I think Pat Connor would have probably done as well. But it was, it still hangs on you that, you know, Mo was an icon and so you need to be able to—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, he was, and he did a great job.

Ed Pastor
Well, not only for Arizona, but for the nation. That was a point in history that, it's a footnote , that we had not had a Mexican-American elected to Congress from Arizona. When Mo Udall resigned in '91, May of '91, I decided to run and seek the seat.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And you've been there a long time.

Ed Pastor
Oh, I'm just getting started.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I hope so.

Ed Pastor
Well that's, '91, it's what, almost 20, 22 years.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's a long time.

Ed Pastor
It is.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't think there are many members of Congress who've served that long, are there?

Ed Pastor
Well, I think today, probably that's not the norm. But when I got into Congress in '91, having people that represent their district, or their state for a number of years was pretty much the norm. And I think that's changed a lot.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It has.

Ed Pastor
In more recent times.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.

Ed Pastor
Going back to my days as a county supervisor, I had an idea of some of the needs that we had in our community, was trying to meet some of the needs that we had in infrastructure. And so , the public transportation, the buses, the light rail, the tower at Sky Harbor, were things that we did.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You helped with public transportation, did you not? In getting some funding?

Ed Pastor
Yes we did. Because I—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Have you ridden the light rail yet?

Ed Pastor
Yes, many times.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Have you?

Ed Pastor
Many times. And now, I was out in Mesa recently, we're going to extend the light rail out in Mesa. And we're going to extend the light rail to northwest Phoenix. And it's probably, one of the other things I'm working on is a commuter train between Phoenix and Tucson.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We need to do something about getting to Tucson, don't you agree?

Ed Pastor
Well, we're working on it, we're working on a commuter train. And so hopefully—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I think that would be thrilling. We have the tracks.

Ed Pastor
Well, we have the tracks and hopefully—we have the land, and so we'll have the willingness now to be able to do it. And so I think that providing services and programs, working with Arizona State, the U of A, NAU to develop educational programs are all things that I've been involved in. But probably the thing that, without really knowing, people say, "Well, what's part of your legacy?" I probably have restored more habitat in Arizona, here at the Rio Salado, the Tres Rios.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right?

Ed Pastor
In Tucson, Rio Chico, and in Yuma, the wetlands in Yuma.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's really important.

Ed Pastor
Well, it's something that I never really thought about doing. And before I know it, we had it done.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good.

Ed Pastor
So, sometimes you get into a situation without really knowing the consequence, and so habitat restoration has been something I have been very active in.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's great. What do you want to have said about you, as people look back at your history?

Ed Pastor
Well, that if they had a problem, if they had a concern, regardless who the person was, they could come to me and I would give it an effort to solve it. I think that's been my working philosophy that I'm there to cut red tape.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And I think people do need that in Congress, it seems impossible for many.

Ed Pastor
I tell my staff that when somebody comes to our office with a problem, that even though the problem seems very simplistic, that's a problem for them. And so you need to to try to solve the problem. People come to you because they're seeking a solution. And so my job is to serve and cut the red tape in many cases.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What changes do you see in Arizona's political landscapes in the years that you've been...how do you see it?

Ed Pastor
Well, I went into Congress. Bob Stump, Jim Kolbe, Jay Rhodes were some of the people that—

Sandra Day O'Connor
And they were all pretty good.

Ed Pastor
Oh, they were all pretty good. They served their communities well. And at the time, in '91, probably the partisanship was not as heavy.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't think it was, didn't you all work pretty well together?

Ed Pastor
Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did. I mean, I worked with the members of the delegation. And one of the things that I enjoyed to my political career is that many of my colleagues, whether Republicans or Democrats, that we wouldn't get into each other's battles in the political campaigns. But that has changed.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And that's changed somewhat.

Ed Pastor
Oh, it's changed. I mean, you see now we're, colleagues are involved in independent expenditures and, you know, going against some of their colleagues. And you well know that in politics, members have long memories, especially.

Sandra Day O'Connor
They do. I'm afraid they do.

Ed Pastor
And their egos are bruised, and so they remember things like that. And so, yeah, I would say that has probably caused more division and turmoil in terms of the delegation.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What changes in a political sense would you like to see for Arizona?

Ed Pastor
I think you started a great movement, getting rid of term limits for the state legislature. I think, if you get rid of term limits, you're going to have people now that can, especially young, bright people—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Who can stay awhile.

Ed Pastor
Who can stay awhile.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And become effective.

Ed Pastor
And become effective, and be able to at least dedicate a few years of their life to public service. I believe that the legislature ought to be paid a decent wage. I mean, right now, with the wages we pay—

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's pretty low.

Ed Pastor
That'd be two changes that would bring immediately, because again, I think to begin to draw young people to say, "You know what, I'm going to commit myself to public service."

Sandra Day O'Connor
Where does Arizona stand in terms of the political landscape today, would you say?

Ed Pastor
Well, I think Arizona is continuing to produce members to the Congress and provides leadership.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good.

Ed Pastor
We have Senator McCain, who obviously is a national leader. I think Jeff Flake starting as a new senator, will leave his mark. Disappointed to see Jon Kyl [leave], but obviously, he had something else.

Sandra Day O'Connor
He served quite a few years.

Ed Pastor
I worked with him when he was in Congress, and he was always very thoughtful.

Sandra Day O'Connor
He's very intelligent.

Ed Pastor
Very intelligent. And Raul Grijalva is becoming a leader in the national, in the progressive movement, as a national leader on many, in the environment today. And so you see more and more people that are taking on that responsibility.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We have a belt in the United States along the southern boundary with many Hispanic residents, people of Hispanic background. Do you see a development there in terms of better representation in Congress and any particular developments there that we should take note of?

Ed Pastor
Well, I think what you could take note of that Arizona today has two Hispanic members of Congress.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Which is pretty impressive.

Ed Pastor
Which is very impressive for a state that doesn't have the population in terms...And I would think that most Arizonans may disagree with some of our politics, but I think we've been able to represent Arizona in a fair manner and be able to provide services to the people of Arizona. And you have, throughout the state, young political leaders who are coming up at the local levels. I just think that the population of Arizona, as it becomes more Latino, more Hispanic, that we will have to get to the realization that that is a pool that we're going to have to seek out and to develop.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Are we starting to do that, do you see any improvement?

Ed Pastor
Well, yes and no. Yes, I would tell you, yes, in terms, because we're supporting more candidates in the Hispanic. But I would say no, because our state still ranks very low in the education of our children. And you have to start with a good public education system. And for whatever reason, it is not a high priority.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Of course that's a state issue more than a congressional issue.

Ed Pastor
It's a state issue.

Sandra Day O'Connor
But we're not meeting it, you think.

Ed Pastor
If Arizona is going to develop, and its biggest population now it's going to be Hispanics, you have to invest in their education. I can tell you without a doubt that I'm here today because I went to a strong public education system.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good.

Ed Pastor
I mean, and that's how many of us today are here. And probably when you went to El Paso?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I had, my parents sent me off to El Paso to go to school. We were too far from town to make the drive every day. And my parents didn't want to separate and have my mother live someplace different than the ranch. And I had grandparents in El Paso, so I was packed off to live with grandparents and go to school there.

Ed Pastor
How was your experience in a border community?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, I thought it was fine. It's much tougher today. We went constantly to Juarez. My grandmother had grown up, her father had a business supplying mining equipment to miners in Mexico. And she spoke Spanish before she spoke English. And she loved going to Juarez to shop and do everything. And we didn't have any problems crossing, we did it frequently.

Ed Pastor
Did you go through elementary and high school in El Paso?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.

Ed Pastor
So how did you, how was your Spanish there?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, un poquito pero no bastante. [A little but not enough.]

Ed Pastor
No bastante. [Not enough.] You know, one of the things in Arizona that I noticed that, growing up, that there was always a little bit of tension between the Anglo and the Mexican community. Did you, and you were in El Paso at a border town, and—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, but I didn't sense it. I don't know why. I lived with grandparents, and then I guess my focus was on school and what I did there. And I was not aware, when I was in school there, about tensions and the political situation. I didn't become interested in that until I was in law school, I think.

Ed Pastor
At Stanford?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, I went to Stanford.

Ed Pastor
From El Paso to Stanford. That was a, interesting...

Sandra Day O'Connor
I was the only member of my high school graduating class that applied to an out-of-state university. And I applied to Stanford, I didn't know anybody there. And to my amazement, they took me! So that was a big change.

Ed Pastor
Well, you sound like me, I was amazed when ASU took me. (laughs)

Sandra Day O'Connor
I know. (Laughs) You know, I think Arizona State University has done wonderfully, don't you? Aren't you impressed?

Ed Pastor
Yes I am. Oh I am, I'm very happy.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And it's a huge university, it's one of the biggest in the country.

Ed Pastor
Well, it's one of the biggest but also, I think, what what has happened—

Sandra Day O'Connor
And one of the best.

Ed Pastor
And one of the best. And I think what, they've gone into research and development. But also, I think, one of the things that I've seen at ASU is that they recognize what's happening to the demographics of Arizona, in terms of the number of population, the Hispanic community. So that they now have begun to devote more programs to bring in and recruit and retain and be successful in the number of Hispanic students that are Arizona residents. So I have to give them—well, U of A and ASU and NAU.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, they've both been good.

Ed Pastor
All three have been good, they've been very good.

Sandra Day O'Connor
All three have been marvelous, I think. We're seeing lots of pressures today in terms of employment in the community of Hispanic oriented workers. And it's not first time that it's happened in Arizona, and I don't know how we've dealt with it satisfactorily in the past. But what's your conclusion from Arizona's history?

Ed Pastor
Arizona, because of its closeness to the border, actually was part of Mexico.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Right, exactly.

Ed Pastor
Before the Gadsden Purchase and revolution. And we've had a Mexican population. And the Mexican community has been here and very active. But in the '30s when we had the Depression, obviously, the United States had a program of deportation. And so what happened, and I recall my family talking about it, how some of the people had to go. A railroad car just went through Morenci and Miami, Globe, Superior, into Phoenix. And the sheriff would come to your house and say, "You don't have the proper papers, so get on the train and"—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Unbelievable.

Ed Pastor
Unbelievable. That, but that was—

Sandra Day O'Connor
But that's what we did.

Ed Pastor
Families were taken or families were separated. Interesting fact, a former congressman, Esteban Torres, was born in Miami, Arizona. And his father was one of the people that was deported. And then his mother and his grandparents moved to Los Angeles, and he became a congressman in California.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right? How interesting.

Ed Pastor
So Miami, Arizona may have had two Hispanic congressmen.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Very interesting.

Ed Pastor
He still claims Miami as his hometown.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good.

Ed Pastor
And so you had separation. Today, with some of our immigration policies of self-deportation are very similar. But obviously, we're going to need a workforce, we've needed a workforce for many years.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We do, so how are we going to deal with it? What's your prediction?

Ed Pastor
Well, we're going to have to deal with a program that allows foreign workers to come, and with some order, where the employer is able to identify and then be able to bring workers, we know who they are, where they're at, they're registered.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And are we going to get it done?

Ed Pastor
Yes we are. I think we are. I think for political reasons, and just economic reasons, we're going to get it done.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We need to watch, these days, what's happening with any legislation or regulation of illegal aliens in the state. That seems to be quite a focus of attention.

Ed Pastor
Well—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Have you taken positions on that?

Ed Pastor
Oh sure I have.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What do you think we ought to be doing?

Ed Pastor
And probably at your ranch, you probably had Mexican work hands, that—

Sandra Day O'Connor
We had very few. That, the employees seldom changed. We had people who were there for 50 years.

Ed Pastor
But they were, you had Mexicans that came and worked there.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, for 50 or more years

Ed Pastor
For 50 or more years, because you were able—well see, there's a demand, and there will be a demand in the future in Arizona and the nation, as our population doesn't, we don't produce many young, and it's an aging population. We're going to need workers to come from other countries.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, right.

Ed Pastor
If you want to secure the border, people are coming over to look for work.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, they are.

Ed Pastor
And there's, our means of bringing them over is not legal. So if we create a system that says, alright, we're going to be bringing foreign workers, we're going to be fair to them. And we're going to know where they're at, what they're doing, then we secure the border. So once you bring a system that brings in people with some kind of order, then you're going to bring security to the border. That's a reality, but for whatever reason we just don't want to face that reality.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, it's a big issue that we need to face here in the southwest, I think.

Ed Pastor
Yes we do. And it's just a matter of finding...So I am for developing a immigration reform system that people can immigrate and be able to immigrate to the United States with some order. For the people that are here and have been here for a number of years, and if they're people that have behaved themselves, then I would move that gray cloud and ensure that they're able to stay here and legalize them in terms of being a, legalize their status and then eventually, if they want to become citizens sometime in the future. But I am very supportive for reform of immigration laws.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And it's going to require a little legislation, I guess.

Ed Pastor
Well, hopefully this year we'll get it done. Hopefully this year, 2013, the Congress will. I see that there's a need for it, and I think there's a willingness to do it.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Good. Do you see a change in attitude in Congress generally about addressing that issue or not?

Ed Pastor
Well, I think after this last election, that at least from what I read and hear, that this population that's becoming greater and greater politically and economically, the Hispanic population, needs to, you need to recruit and retain. And I think, at least from what I read and am told, that leadership in the moderate Republican Party are saying, "We don't want to be left out," because we need to ensure, as well as women and other populations, they need to—

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's taken a while for the women to get in there, but they're doing better, too.

Well, I don't know if you remember, but I was at your dedication of the federal courthouse that's named after you.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.

Ed Pastor
Judge Bloomfield let me say a few words because I represented the area.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.

Ed Pastor
And I found it kind of ironic that we had the the justice, who broke more glass ceilings, that we named the glass courthouse in her name. So I said that was interesting.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it's a wonderful courthouse.

Ed Pastor
It's a beautiful courthouse.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And a good addition to our state.

Ed Pastor
Well, it's, it's an honor to you and your work you've done for us in Arizona.

Sandra Day O'Connor
A great honor, I was very grateful for that.

Ed Pastor
So you've done a couple of, you've broken a few glass ceilings.

Sandra Day O'Connor
A few here and there, I'd say, yes. Well, you and I were on a similar path in a way—

Ed Pastor
Yes we were .

Sandra Day O'Connor
Of coming from a culture that didn't so much favor women in public office or Hispanics in public office, to a situation where it's sought after, these days.

Ed Pastor
Our Constitution says that regardless who you are, that you have rights—

Sandra Day O'Connor
It does.

Ed Pastor
And it talks, doesn't talk about gender, or ethnic, or race. And we need to continue that path and overcome some of the barriers.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's right. It's been a real pleasure to have you visit O'Connor House.

Ed Pastor
Thank you very much.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And congratulations on having such a successful career in the Congress of the United States, It matters, and Arizona can be proud to have you in its hierarchy of leaders in this area.

Ed Pastor
Well, I have to tell you that one of the greatest honors I have is being here with you, I have—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, well, you and I both had a little, you know, broke a barrier or two.

Ed Pastor
Yes we have. I know we have, but I have, my respect for you and the work you've done in terms of the Supreme Court—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Thank you.

Ed Pastor
At the State Senate here, that you have always been a person who's, who has met challenges by making sure that everybody's treated fairly. And so I thank you.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, you've done a great job in Congress. So keep it up now.

Ed Pastor
Well, we'll keep going, one way or the other.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Alright. Nice to have you here.

Ed Pastor
Thank you very much, thank you very much.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Thank you.