Sandra Day O'Connor
Secretary Napolitano. What a pleasure it is to be back in Arizona and talk a little on this occasion of Arizona's hundredth birthday. Can you believe we're 100 years old? I feel about that old myself.

Janet Napolitano
(laughs) 100 years young, maybe!

Sandra Day O'Connor
No. Anyway, I'm really glad that you could come. When did you take over as head of Homeland Security?

Janet Napolitano
I took over at the very beginning of President Obama's term just about three years ago.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Does it seem like 100 years?

Janet Napolitano
We've packed a lot into three years. You know, it's, it is the third-largest department of the federal government. We cover everything, and it has been challenging and interesting and has really been a wonderful experience.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's very difficult. I'm going to come back to that later, because it's an amazing job that you took on. But what brought you to Arizona in the first place? When did you come to Arizona?

Janet Napolitano
Well, you know, I grew up in New Mexico. So I'm from the southwest. But I'd gone to college in California and and then spent time in in Virginia for law school. And I decided I wanted to move back West somewhere. And I got a judicial clerkship with Judge Mary Schroeder of the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh yes, right. How fun.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah. And the Ninth Circuit, you know, covers most of the western states.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh, it's huge.

Janet Napolitano
It's a huge circuit.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We need to split it, and California will not agree because it would require splitting California.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. That's right. So it'll stay, I think, probably as a whole, and it will be administered as a large court. But in any event, her chambers are here. So I moved to Phoenix for one year. And I thought, I got here like in August of 1983, and I--

Sandra Day O'Connor
That wasn't too inviting, in August.

Janet Napolitano
Oh my gosh, I remember I had everything I owned was in my little Honda hatchback.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Did you burn your hands when you got in the Honda after it had been parked in the sun?

Janet Napolitano
All I remember was driving down through the, from the Salt River Canyon, and I came down looking at Phoenix, and the waves of heat are coming out. I was like, "There's no way I'm staying here." You know, one year is going to be long enough. Well.

Sandra Day O'Connor
So what happened? What was the next job when you stopped being clerk?

Janet Napolitano
Well, I grew. I, you know, I loved my clerkship year, and I got used to Arizona, loved it, loved the people. And so I went to work at Lewis and Roca, one of the larger law firms in town.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Big law firm. And who did you work with, John Frank, or who was your main?

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, I worked with John Frank. And he's one of, you know...Arizona's legal profession is dotted with some some outstanding personalities. And John was certainly one of those. He had been a Yale Law professor. He'd been a clerk for Justice Hugo Black.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Very intelligent man.

Janet Napolitano
Very smart. Had moved out here because he had asthma, as so many people did.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's what brought many people to Arizona.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, a lot. And he ended up at Lewis and Roca. He handled cases before the Supreme Court, including the Miranda case, which was a pro bono case.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Which has been one of the most significant cases of the Court. I mean, frequently cited because it arises all the time in criminal cases.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. And most people who watch any TV whatsoever know the Miranda warning.

Sandra Day O'Connor
They know the Miranda rights. They can give them, they can repeat them. I know.

Janet Napolitano
There were actually lawyers at Lewis and Roca who had the wallet card that police officers get with the Miranda warning on it, signed by Miranda, you know, the autograph Miranda card, which is like the best legal souvenir.

Sandra Day O'Connor
How funny. Yeah, that would be pretty good.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, it was pretty good. So anyway, but John always had a young attorney, young lawyer working for him. And so I had that position and so, learned at the feet of the master.

Sandra Day O'Connor
So what was the first position in public service in Arizona that you took on?

Janet Napolitano
You know, I left private practice after about 10 years to become the US Attorney for Arizona, which is the chief federal prosecutor.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. Right.

Janet Napolitano
And it's a large US Attorney's Office. Arizona is one district, it's a diverse district. A lot of federal criminal jurisdiction between the border, Indian lands--

Sandra Day O'Connor
Immigration problems. Indian law problems.

Janet Napolitano
Lots of immigration law, Indian, narcotics cases, white collar cases, everything you would want in a federal crime caseload, you get in the US Attorney's office here, so.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And you became the US Attorney.

Janet Napolitano
I was the US Attorney. And since I had been mostly a commercial practitioner, I had to learn the criminal law very quickly. And I had a lot of good help there in the office. And we had some amazing cases, and some tragic cases. We, during the period I was US Attorney, the Oklahoma City bombing occurred.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my.

Janet Napolitano
Remember that, 1995.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, luckily that wasn't in your jurisdiction, but it was a shocker.

Janet Napolitano
Well, and a lot of the planning for it occurred in Arizona, in Kingman to be precise. And I so remember getting a call early one morning from the Deputy Attorney General of the United States saying they had the guy, he had done his planning in Arizona, and I needed a command center in Kingman.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my word, I didn't remember that. That's where he planned the bombing?

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my word.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah. And so we had a big piece of that investigation. And then the same year we had a train, Amtrak train derail outside of Hyder, Arizona, which is in western Maricopa County right at the end of Maricopa County.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I don't even recall the name Hyder. I should.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, it is a little--

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is it separately incorporated?

Janet Napolitano
It might be, but it is little. And this train had been intentionally derailed as it went over a large bridge.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Intentionally?

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, the rails had been moved.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my word.

Janet Napolitano
So as the passenger train went over, it progressively went off and off until finally it was down like a huge V in this arroyo.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Oh my word.

Janet Napolitano
There was one fatality, 77 serious injuries.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Were the people responsible prosecuted, then?

Janet Napolitano
It couldn't, we never found them.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You didn't find them.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, it's still an open case.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I hope you do.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
For goodness sakes.

Janet Napolitano
And that was just a few of the things that were going on in Arizona at the time.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You know, Arizona has had kind of an interesting history of women in public office.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And the first one I remember was Isabella Greenway, is that right?

Janet Napolitano
Right, I think so.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Who got elected to Congress--

Janet Napolitano
She was in Congress.

Sandra Day O'Connor
At a very early stage.

Janet Napolitano
Right. One of the first women in Congress.

Sandra Day O'Connor
The first Arizona woman.

Janet Napolitano
Right, right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
But there were very few others in those days. I mean, that was early. She served from 1933 to 1937. So that was early.

Janet Napolitano
That was very early. There's a wonderful book written about her by one of the professors at the University of Arizona, came out a couple of years ago, and it's how a lot of the early history of Arizona and Isabella.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Now I'm going to have to get that. Now her family owns the Arizona Inn in Tucson.

Janet Napolitano
Right, right, on Elm Street!

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. And so if you want to see pictures and things, you can go visit Arizona Inn.

Janet Napolitano
Well, and that's one of my favorite places to stay.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Isn't it? I know. It's nice, though. Arizona gave women the right to vote in 1912.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That has lots of resonance.

Janet Napolitano
Yes. Well, and you know, there's something about the western states have been better for women in politics, generally. I mean, they earlier, I think Wyoming was the first state to give women the right to vote.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes it was.

Janet Napolitano
Arizona was shortly thereafter.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We did it in 1912.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. And had women in the legislature, as you were, and we've had women in all different offices statewide.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, Arizona couldn't do it earlier because it wasn't a state.

Janet Napolitano
It was a territory.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It had to wait until it was a state to give women the right to vote!

Janet Napolitano
That's right. Right, right. And came in on the same day as New Mexico, actually.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that right?

Janet Napolitano
That's right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I'd forgotten that.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, New Mexico came in a few hours earlier, they're 47, we're 48.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well they had been merged at one time as a territory.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. You know, this big, kind of, big area in the southwest. They're very different states, though.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I grew up on a ranch that was half in Arizona and half in New Mexico, and we were, we crossed that border line.

Janet Napolitano
Oh, I didn't realize that you were that far to the east. Okay. Wow. So from Round Mountain, could you see into New Mexico?

Sandra Day O'Connor
We certainly could.

Janet Napolitano
Wow.

Sandra Day O'Connor
In fact, the house, the road to get to the house started in New Mexico and then ended up back in Arizona before you got to the house. And Pancho Villa was operating in Mexico and leading kind of a, an attempt for a revolution there.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And Pancho Villa chased a bunch of farmers from a little town across the border into Mexico, and he chased them out of the country, and they came and settled in Virden, New Mexico. They came right across where we were and settled and began farming in Virden. Isn't that something?

Janet Napolitano
They gave up their--

Sandra Day O'Connor
They gave up Mexico.

Janet Napolitano
Exactly.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well now, we've had, I remember a year. It was 1998. And I swore into office, after the general election, I guess six women. The whole state government of Arizona was headed by women.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And I'm going to read this list, and then you tell me what you remember. You were one of them. I swore in Jane Hull as Governor, a woman. Betsy Bayless, as Secretary of State.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You, as Attorney General.

Janet Napolitano
Yours truly.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And Carol Springer as Treasurer of the state. And Lisa Graham Keegan, who was Superintendent of Public Instruction. Can you believe that?

Janet Napolitano
That's right. That's right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I couldn't believe sitting on that platform and administering the oath to every one of these women. That was pretty incredible.

Janet Napolitano
You know, they...it was really funny because first of all, it was a great inaugural. And thank you for doing the swearing in, it was so fun. But they're, the four of them were Republican. I was the only Democrat. But what happened is, the morning after the election, everybody woke up and it's like everyone discovered, "Oh, my gosh, they're all girls!" You know, "What happened here?" And so somebody started calling us the Fab Five, and we were the Fab Five. And there was one of the national magazines and you know, Business Week or Newsweek, one of those. They had a page that said, "Odd things in the 1998 election." And half of the page was Jesse Ventura, and the other half was us. So...

Sandra Day O'Connor
It was remarkable. It hasn't happened began.

Janet Napolitano
No, that was, I think it's been the only time in American history that that has happened in any state.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I think so, too. But it was remarkable.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I think Arizona has been much in the mind of the public in the last few years because of border control problems.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And a piece of legislation from the Arizona legislature that created kind of a fuss. You've had to deal with some of that, first as Attorney General here.

Janet Napolitano
Well, first as US Attorney, actually.

Sandra Day O'Connor
As US Attorney, who had prosecute, probably some of those.

Janet Napolitano
Thousands of cases, yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Were they numerous in those days?

Janet Napolitano
They were. But I saw, what I saw was the migration pattern from Mexico change. It was heavy. And then what happened is the federal government put operations in San Diego and in El Paso, and they shut the border down there and funneled a lot of--

Sandra Day O'Connor
More into Arizona.

Janet Napolitano
Into Arizona. And it has taken a while to regain control over that Arizona border.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that still the case, is there still funneling here or has it spread out?

Janet Napolitano
It has spread out more, and the numbers in Arizona over the last several years are down significantly. And that's a combination of things. It's a lot more Border Patrol and technology and infrastructure at the border itself. It's the economy, the jobs are not the same.

Sandra Day O'Connor
We don't have many jobs anymore.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. It's much, and, you know, there are more opportunities in Mexico itself. And so, you know, you add all those things together, and you get a very, very different picture along our border than existed even a few years ago.

Sandra Day O'Connor
What should we be doing now, in your view, about border control? What should the state be doing as opposed to the federal government?

Janet Napolitano
My view is that the federal government needs to sustain its efforts, that the border is primarily federal. And that the state efforts, to the extent there are any, need to be coordinated under the federal umbrella in this particular area. But one thing I would hope for Arizona is that it begin at the state level to recognize other issues beyond immigration. That we are a state that will always have a border and border issues. So Paul Fannin said, "God made us neighbors, we should be good neighbors." We should be working more on developing the travel and commerce that goes back and forth. Because, you know, those communities down in the southern part of the state are heavily dependent on trade and commerce with Mexico.

Sandra Day O'Connor
They certainly are. And traffic is somewhat limited now because of our concerns.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. Well, one of the things the state can do, I think, is really focus on the good side of being a border, and then work with the federal government on making sure we sustain that federal presence down there.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is it still easy, in your view, for US citizens to cross and return on the border? Is that okay?

Janet Napolitano
It's not as easy as it was. I mean, I remember, you know, as a kid growing up, you would go down to Juarez occasionally and go over and have lunch and come back.

Sandra Day O'Connor
I lived in El Paso with my maternal grandparents because there was no school by the ranch, and they packed me off to El Paso. And we went over to Juarez frequently.

Janet Napolitano
Right, you just crossed the bridge.

Sandra Day O'Connor
To shop or to whatever.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, exactly. Well, you wouldn't do that now. And I don't think people do it as much between Nogales, Arizona and Nogales, Sonora. And that is just a change that's happened. The border has become stiffer. But that doesn't mean that we still don't need a lot of traveling and going back and forth.

Sandra Day O'Connor
So any advice for Arizona on that question, on that issue?

Janet Napolitano
Again, my hope for Arizona would be that it really focus on coordinating with the federal government instead of fighting with the federal government. I hope that people begin to recognize that the border now is very different than it was even two years ago, by every statistical measure, and we want to keep it that way. And then recognize that there are so many issues in Arizona beyond that.

Sandra Day O'Connor
There's still lots of traffic between our two countries along the border because we buy many agricultural products that are grown in Mexico, they have to come across the border.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And for a while, a lot of factories were placed in Mexico to produce things because they thought labor was cheaper. So that meant a lot of things coming in. Is that still the case?

Janet Napolitano
Yes, it is. And you know, one of the things we see is, for example, electrical components. It's a big trade, part of the trade between the United States into Mexico and then finished products back. So one of the changes that has happened is the enlargement of the actual ports of entry. So the commercial ports, like at the Mariposa gate in Nogales are getting big, big enlargements to handle that commercial traffic going back and forth. And that produces jobs. That's good for the state.

Sandra Day O'Connor
How difficult is it for Mexican citizens to get permits to work across here in the farm fields, for instance?

Janet Napolitano
It's very difficult, and one of the complaints growers have is that it's too difficult to get people to work in the fields, and that there are acres of production that are going unharvested because they they don't have [workers] to do it.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Is that anything you're working on, is that something you're concerned about and working on?

Janet Napolitano
Concerned about. But at a certain point, there's only so much we can do before Congress has to act. And Congress, as you know, has been stuck on this issue for quite some time.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it's interesting, because the area around Yuma is devoted to farm fields.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And I think we grow most of the lettuce for the world as far as I know.

Janet Napolitano
And lemons. We grow lemons and broccoli and all kinds of things.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Right. And some farm workers are needed from below the border.

Janet Napolitano
That's right. And again, what has happened is, is that with the hardening of the border, the immigration law itself has not changed or evolved to handle the evolving situation and the needs of the country. And it's not just in Arizona, but all up and down the Pacific coast and all up and down the East Coast. The growers are saying, "We need help." But again, on the executive branch level, you can do so much, and then Congress has to act.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Does Congress rely on you for advice now and then?

Janet Napolitano
(laughs) I give them advice.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Good.

Janet Napolitano
Whether they rely on it, that's another question.

Sandra Day O'Connor
That's good. Do you think that your presence in Arizona and the offices you've held and what you've done and are now doing, how do you see your role in your memory for Arizona and the US? What have you been able to accomplish?

Janet Napolitano
I think, you know, during my time in public office in Arizona, it was a time of tremendous growth, tremendous population growth. The economy was booming. And it wasn't that long ago. So as, you know, we go through these very tough recessionary times, remember it wasn't that long ago that the pendulum was in another direction. So, it was a time of building. So when I was governor, we were building, you know, we were building highways, we were building a medical school, we were enlarging the universities. We were, you know, it was a real time of evolution for Arizona from kind of a small state to a larger state with a huge potential.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well what do you see for Arizona today? Where should we be working, as citizens of Arizona? What should we be doing, from your perspective?

Janet Napolitano
This state will be enriched by putting long-term investment into the education of its young people. And I mean, from the earliest ages all the way up through higher education. It's, that creates the base from which the economy derives, that creates the base for an educated electorate. I mean, it just, you know, it really is one of the--

Sandra Day O'Connor
Do you think we need to do a little better on those early grades and high school than we're doing?

Janet Napolitano
Well, you know, one of the things most states have had to do in the last few years during the recession is cut back on education. I mean, you know, they've got to balance their budgets and whatever. And the largest discretionary item in a budget is higher education. And so all across the country, you've seen public universities take big, big whacks. I would hope that as the economy comes back, and as decisions are being made about resource allocations, people recognize that this is a long-term investment in the common good.

Sandra Day O'Connor
One of my projects has been to educate the lower grades, middle school through early high school, about how government works. Civics, if you will.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Half the states have stopped teaching it, I'm sure you know.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And I've developed a website that's free. And it consists of--

Janet Napolitano
(laughs) Now what's the name of the website?

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's iCivics.org. And it really does a good job. It has games on it the young people play that's very engaging.

Janet Napolitano
That's amazing. And that is such a good thing. Because you know, when you think about what goes on in America today, and watching the news, or if you read a paper or are watching Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert or whatever, you do have to have a fundamental knowledge of the separation of powers and the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the judiciary. I mean, the lack of public awareness about what the judiciary does is pretty astounding.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Now, today is the day that we celebrate the birthday of the adoption of the Bill of Rights. And I think the Bill of Rights has had an incredible significance for our country.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
The Constitution itself, I think, would not have been ratified had it not contained a bill of rights, which a couple of states had adopted, like Virginia.

Janet Napolitano
It was the sweetener for some states to ratify, that is true.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It was. And it's been terribly important for the country.

Janet Napolitano
Would you say that some of your more significant opinions on the Court were in the Bill of Rights arena, First Amendment in particular?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes. And I think any member of the Supreme Court during the years I served, could say the same thing. We had a number of cases, and will continue to have, arising out of issues concerning that, where the Bill of Rights came into play in resolving them. So it's tremendously important.

Janet Napolitano
Right. Exactly. And, you know, understanding the ratification battles I find to be a fascinating era of American history and how that came together.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes.

Janet Napolitano
And I don't know whether you watch current European Union politics at all—

Sandra Day O'Connor
I'm watching a bit of it.

Janet Napolitano
Well, it does remind me a little bit of, as we moved from confederation to constitution, you know, how do you actually unite different cultures?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes, I don't know if they will ever have a solid union such as we have. They probably won't, it's going to be a looser arrangement. But certainly the EU today is having all kinds of issues because of debt problems in the different member states and how to handle it.

Janet Napolitano
That's exactly right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And because they're not unified, it's been more difficult to handle.

Janet Napolitano
Right. Exactly. Now, when you were on the Court, you had a number of Arizonans argue before you, I think, there were a number of Arizona cases.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes indeed.

Janet Napolitano
I argued before you once, that was fun.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Alright, now what was that? What case did you have?

Janet Napolitano
I argued, I was the Attorney General, and I argued a case called Ring v. Arizona.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And what did that involve, do you remember?

Janet Napolitano
It was the constitutionality of Arizona's death penalty statute.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And had it been held invalid?

Janet Napolitano
No, it had been held constitutional.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It had been upheld.

Janet Napolitano
And it was being challenged just a few years later, which I found remarkable. I argued in favor of the statute's constitutionality.

Sandra Day O'Connor
And it was upheld.

Janet Napolitano
It, no, (laughs) the Court reversed itself. Except for you and Justice Rehnquist, you said the statute was constitutional, I thought you were right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, we thought it was.

Janet Napolitano
And it was, and you were right. But unfortunately, there were seven other members—

Sandra Day O'Connor
Our colleagues didn't agree.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah. Don't you hate it when that happens?

Sandra Day O'Connor
Well, it happens, though.

Janet Napolitano
It does indeed.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's alright. I guess that's the name of the game.

Janet Napolitano
Indeed. But what an experience that was.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You're free to disagree. Was it challenging to argue in front of the Court?

Janet Napolitano
Oh, yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
You weren't nervous were you?

Janet Napolitano
Yeah, you are because you have to be so prepared.

Sandra Day O'Connor
But you were so used to it. You'd been in all kinds of cases at every level.

Janet Napolitano
I'd argued in appellate courts and all kinds--exactly. But it's the Supreme Court, that's, you know, it's a different dynamic.

Sandra Day O'Connor
All the justices kind of pepper these lawyers with a lot of questions.

Janet Napolitano
Yeah.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Did the Court give you a hard time that day?

Janet Napolitano
Well, you don't get much out before they start zinging 'em at you.

Sandra Day O'Connor
The first question happens almost immediately, doesn't it?

Janet Napolitano
I had the tougher side of the argument, I must say, because the Court's jurisprudence had changed in the last couple years. But, you know, you're, it's a tiny courtroom. It really is small. And you're right there.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It is. People don't realize how close the lawyers are to the justices.

Janet Napolitano
Right.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It's a space of less than 10 feet.

Janet Napolitano
Right. Right. And you're at the lawyer's desk. They have quill pens at the lawyers' desk.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Isn't that fun? You don't use them, but they look good.

Janet Napolitano
No, and then you, you kind of take them with you as your souvenir.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Right. Oh you have to. Well, we assume that lawyers will do that, take a quill pen.

Janet Napolitano
Right. With the printed program.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Right. Well, now what advice do you have for Arizona as we celebrate the great anniversary of Arizona's admission to the union, 100 years? What should we plan for the second hundred?

Janet Napolitano
I think Arizona is poised for a great next century.

Sandra Day O'Connor
In what way? How are we going to emerge for that?

Janet Napolitano
Well, I think, you know, it's a tough economic time. It's been a tough time. It's been a tough political time in the state.

Sandra Day O'Connor
Yes it has.

Janet Napolitano
But I think in the end, the state will be stronger for it. Tough times make people stronger. And people hold together and realize, well, what kind of state do they want to build? And one of the things about Arizona, 100 years sounds like a long time, but it's not a long time.

Sandra Day O'Connor
No.

Janet Napolitano
And Arizona now is just beginning to come into its own. And if it really focuses on that kind of sense of building and of forward momentum and where it can be, there's great things that can happen here. It's a great place to live.

Sandra Day O'Connor
It is. Well that's good advice and good comments, and we appreciate your being willing to talk about it. We really do. You've been a big part of Arizona's history. So thank you for being part of this.

Janet Napolitano
Thank you so much. Thank you.