Host
And joining us now in Washington, DC, Sandra Day O'Connor retired US Supreme Court justice. Justice O'Connor. It's a pleasure to be talking to you today. Thank you for joining me.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm glad it worked out. Thank you.

Host
Well, I know it's been some years since you stepped down from the bench of the Supreme Court in the United States, not too long. 2005. If I've got the year, correct.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yeah.

Host
Well, I know you let me put it to you this way. I know you've been very busy. In the inter interviews.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I have, yes.

Host
And one of the things you've been working on is the I civics project and civic education in the US. And that's what we want to speak with you about today. Good. So I want to just step back, though, around the time that you stepped down from the bench. There were some people I think conservative Republicans, for the most part attacking the independence of the courts in the US. What was your reaction at the time?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, fear was critical system from all quarters, including from Republicans circles, on courts in general, I There seemed to me that there was an increasing number of complaints about the courts and a lack of understanding about judicial independence, whatever that is. And I think that much of that came was a product of ignorance of by the public generally about the role of the courts. What do you mean by that? I? Well, for instance, there was a survey conducted by the Annenberg Public Policy Center. And it tells us that at that time, 75% of Americans did not really know the difference between a judge and a legislator. And half the people surveyed, thought it was important to be able to impeach a judge, just making a decision that was unpopular with the public. And more than two thirds of Americans, at that time, could name at least one judge on that TV program, American Idol. But not they couldn't name the Chief Justice of the United States. And I that kind of thing makes it clear why political tax or criticism of judges and courts was on the rise? And I think we understand that that was the the setting and probably still is, to a great extent,

Host
were you surprised when you saw those kinds of statistics.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, it was I, I was aware, in general, that there was a lack of understanding. But those statistics brought up to close to home for me.

Host
And that was the reason that then you decided to devote much of your time to educating young people?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, you and I also realize that that lack of knowledge, extended beyond just the judicial branch of government is, you know, in the United States, as well as in Canada, we have three branches of government. And in the US, at least, we think that most young people should understand our bill of rights. And it set out the basic rights of all citizens of the United States. And a majority of the students who were being interviewed could not name a single activity that was part of civic life, life, part of the basic concept of the Bill of Rights. I mean, we couldn't get any information from them at all. And, I mean, these young people are the next gen, the coming generation of voters, of our community leaders of our citizens. And understanding the role of citizens in our form of government, in the United States, as well as in Canada, is really essential to the preservation of democracy in both of our countries. And if we don't understand the concept of the obligation and rights of citizens, what do we what do we expect is going to happen? It isn't going to be quite what we want, I think,

Host
Well tell me this, because I want to go back to your days in El Paso, Texas, growing up going to school as a child during that time. I mean, was the situation vastly different? Were you learning in school, about the branches of government and about civics?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, I grew up on a ranch in a very remote place in Arizona and New Mexico. There weren't any schools within striking distance. So my parents sent me off to El Paso, Texas, where I stayed with my maternal grandparents and went to school in El Paso. And we learned a lot about our government. In school, we learned about particularly government, and civics and the history of Texas. And to be honest, I heard so much about Steven Austin, and Sam Houston, Texas heroes, that it would be fine with me if I didn't have to hear any more about it.

Host
But the times they are changing, things are quite different nowadays. Yes.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And well, they're different. And they're not different. We still have young people growing up who are going to be citizens and voters and in charge if it's all and I'm not sure that young people today know any more than we did when I was a youngster now past. So

Host
you know, back in 2007, you held a conference at Georgetown Law School and you brought together Yes, a variety of professionals to talk about civics education. What kind of conclusions did this group come to regarding how engaged young people are in with civic life?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, we didn't have the statistics that we may have. But all of us were aware that young people in general have very little contact, contact as youngsters, with our government, and in in ways to show these young people what their role is going to be as citizens. Most of the schools in those days did try to teach civics. And we didn't have public schools in our country, when our nation was formed when we adopted our Constitution. We didn't have public schools. And young people learned in different ways, usually, by private teaching, and some went off to some kind of schools. But there wasn't an Oregon nice program to teach civics. And it was in the 1820s, or there abouts. That there was a movement in the United States to get public schools to get education for young people. And the motivation behind that was to try to teach these young people, the nature of our governments so that they would understand their role as it was going to be as citizens of our country and how they could be involved. And so I think that was the goal. And I went on from high school in El Paso to Stanford University in California. And I must say, I didn't know a lot about government, myself and citizens involvement. But I heard it Stanford that there was a law school professor there, who gave a few undergraduate classes at Stanford, for me, he was a an inspiring professor. Because of that advice, I signed up for one of his classes at Stanford. And he was very inspiring. Growing up on the ranch, as I did in a remote area. I didn't know lawyers, they weren't part of my environment at all. And my parents friends tended to be people in the cattle business, not lawyers. Hmm. And so I had a lot to learn. And I valued the class that I had from their professor. And I think it was because of him, probably, that I eventually applied for admission to law school at Stanford.

Host
Well, you are now you know, the tables are turned a little bit because now you're teaching students about civics through your program called I civics. So tell me what I civics is about.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I civics is an attempt to teach middle school students primarily, that's grades five through nine, middle school students, they are the most receptive, they're marvelous. I don't know if you've been around young people a lot. But at that age, their hormones haven't totally get them. So they're not just interested in kids of the opposite sex, they're still happy to be learning, they like to learn. And they like school, and they like learning things. So I have found that that's a great age, to teach young people almost anything. So that was that was our target with I civics To tell you the truth,

Host
tell me about the I

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
have. Here's the other thing that we, we were very conscious of young people that age and on even older, spend on an average 40 hours a week in front of some kind of TV screen. That is a huge amount of time. And so what it seemed to me, at least and in the people I was talking to, is that if you're going to try an education program, it probably ought to be something that could be used found on a website, and you could dial up on a computer, and watch a screen and learn the things that we hope to teach. We thought that was the best way to get people educated. And then to make it fun. And to do that you had to have games. And what we did, as a start was get a group of teacher advisors. And we have the most wonderful group of teachers that we assembled, mostly from the southwest of the United States, but experienced teachers who could tell us if we were going to teach civics in middle school at that age, what specifically would we have to cover what concept should be in there? With that advice and knowledge, we then tried to develop games that the young people could play that we could put on the website that they could dial up and play, and in the process, learn while they were having a good time playing games. Now, there are a few firms in the United States, and I'm sure in Canada as well, whose job it is to develop games that can be used on a website that have the effect of teaching things. And so that's how we made progress. Well, I want to talk, I think it was a good idea.

Host
I want to talk to you about one at one of the games specifically. But before I do that, I want to ask you, where did the i and i civics? What's that all about?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, because we have iPad and iPod and I everything little I don't know where that came from. But we thought I civics.

Host
Fair enough. Good point. Okay. I want to talk about just as an example, one of the games one is called decorative commanded it shows the user what it's like to be president for a day. So broadly speaking, what's a game like that? What do we what's the student supposed to learn from something that what's it supposed to teach them?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
What we hope it teaches is a general view of the kinds of things that a president is faced with day in and day out in terms of deciding things. I don't think most of us much less our young people know what goes on in the president's office day in and day out? What kinds of decisions is he supposed to reach? What is he doing? What is he saying? What is he directing from that office? And so we tried to encompass some of that in the game so that a young person playing the role of President could experience some of the issues that that President would have to face day in and day out?

Host
What are the reactions for the students that have played this? And you've talked with what have they been saying to you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
What they like it, they have fun. Young people are used to playing games, you know, they kind of like the app. And they're very accustomed to turning on a TV screen, and doing something on the internet, and particularly if its interactive. So they like it, it lets them in on the actual situation making pretend to be a president and have to decide certain things in the office.

Host
You know, there are those that would say that, yes, this is fun. And it's an added tool for for young people to learn from. But you know, civics really belongs in a more traditional setting, not in a video game sort of setting interactive game, is there evidence to say that students are actually learning from these games?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Oh, indeed, there is. We've had several studies done by groups who make it their business to study the progress of study somehow how much they've learned, in one way or another. And we've had young people who've been exposed to I civics games then tested, and they just have learned incredible amounts, it is extremely effective. It is just remarkable. In fact, one of the recent studies was done at Baylor University in Texas, and they have education and education department, and they made a major study of this, and to see how effective it is. And the results were overwhelmingly positive. It's just remarkable how much students learn from this process that happens to be fun while we're doing it.

Host
We know in your country, and similarly in ours, for that matter, that it's, you know, not just children that might not know these kinds of things about civic

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
education, are just about as bad. You're right. It's it's at the young people are a reflection of what their parents know, I'm at some fat March. And none of us are as well informed as we should be about what the different branches of our government are doing.

Host
So let me ask you this, then this approach, you know, is geared towards children, how do you engage adults on these kinds of matters?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Through the children, I guess, most adults are interested in what their children are learning. I always was as a parent of young people. And I like to kind of follow along and see if they're learning, if they're using a certain textbook, I like to have a look at it and see what's in there. And if they're not using a textbook, as might be the case, with an online class on a computer, then I would be interested as a parent in knowing what it is, the young people are learning. So I think that's why there is an interest there and why it's important for the young people, as well as their parents to have a contraceptive what's being taught.

Host
the changing demographics in the United States is something you know, we hear a lot about on many different levels here in Canada. And I'm wondering how, you know, new immigration to your country has affected how civics is taught in your schools?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, if you are admitting to your country, large numbers of people from elsewhere in the world, some of whom don't even speak English language very well. And people who have had no training at all, in schools in the United States to have an opportunity to learn about the system of government, you have a big job on your hands to teach immigrants to teach newcomers to their country who are going to live here to teach them how government works. Now to become a citizen in the United States, and I assume it's similar in Canada, the perspective citizen has to take some tests about how the American system of government works, they're expected to know and understand a lot of things, more even Mina grade school or would in the United States. So it's not like this is a new concept. People are expected to know some of these things.

Host
I want to talk a little bit about a new bill that was introduced in the House of Representatives in the US last year. It's a bipartisan bill. And it's called the Sandra Day O'Connor civic learning act. That's a pretty good title. Well, that's pretty

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
exciting, isn't it? Yeah. I don't know what's happened. But it's based on what's going on with the Civic I civics program. And perhaps it was an effort by the sponsors to perhaps generate overall support throughout the country for this notion of effectively educating young people about how our government works.

Host
It suggests to me, though, that, you know, your representatives, your government seems to think that your idea that well, not your idea, but your push to better educate young people is a good one. So I'm wondering if this bill does pass, will it you know, for this the success of things like I civics?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm sure it would, it would encourage and bring more recognition in a public fashion throughout the United States, to school administrators and to school boards, about the availability of opportunities to better educate young people about our system of government. So it can't hurt. And I think it could help a lot.

Host
Well, there you go. We'll have to see where it goes. You said you're not sure where it stands right now? We'll keep an eye on No, I'm not. No, I do want to talk to you about one other thing. And that, of course, is is you being the first woman appointed to the US Supreme Court and where we are these days in terms of women's representation on various benches. So I just want to read a short quote to you just have a listen to this. This comes from the Women's Law Center, the US National Women's Law Center report, and it was for me earlier this year, over the past three decades, and an increasing number of women have joined the legal profession for 25 years, approximately 45% of law students have been women. In the last decade, women's representation has approached 50%. But the number of women in the federal judiciary has largely stagnated. 51 of the 166 active judges currently sitting on the 13 Federal Courts of Appeal are female, that's about 31%, when broken down by circuit, women's representation on several of these individual courts is even lower than on the Court of Appeal overall. Justice O'Connor, why are we still not seeing enough or more women in the US federal judiciary?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It's a slow process to select judges, the federal judiciary is not large enough, you know, I'm sure it's the same in Canada, it's a small percentage of the overall number of judges in the United States, the bulk of cases are decided in state courts. And in a large number of state courts, judges are elected, not appointed. And so we have a different process involved in selection of judges. In many of the states in the United States. The federal court system is much smaller overall in numbers. But the federal courts play a very important role in our country. And we care about the composition there. And when I was asked to serve on the Supreme Court and nominated by President than President Ronald Reagan, it was the year 1981. At that time, there had never been a woman on the United States Supreme Court from the beginning of our country, not one. So that absence was notable. That sets kind of an example from that top down. And so President Reagan's decision to put a woman it's not because it was me, but to put a woman on the Supreme Court was very significant for our country. I think it had repercussions in other countries as well. Canada's response was a little more prompt than ours. It was not long at all, before Canada had at least three women on the Canadian Supreme Court. And it took us much longer. We have three women on there now. But it took a while.

Host
But you were the first and I'm wondering, were you always aware that you were setting such a huge example for for women to look up to and to follow?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it was clear to me that being the first and for some years, only mon on the US Supreme Court made me highly visible in our country and probably beyond our borders as well. In that capacity, you're aware that you probably ought to try to do a pretty good job if you're going to set a good example.

Host
I think there are many people who would agree that you did quite a good job.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Thank you

Host
You know, you you have not, you know, stopped working your work. You're very busy and very active. You've written a children's book, you're involved in the civic engagement children to children's

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
books, and to adult books. And I have another one coming out in February.

Host
Well, there you go. Because that was my question. What are we going to see next from Justice O'Connor? So it's

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
going to see another book from the come February.

Host
Another book and what's it about?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it's about the court, basically. But it it has some interesting stories in it. So I hope it will be something of, of interest to general readers.

Host
Well, we appreciate your time. Justice O'Connor, thank you very much for joining us today and do take care.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Thank you. And let me just say, while I have you that the Canadian Supreme Court has been an inspiration beyond Canada's borders, you've had a wonderful woman Chief Justice for a number of years. She's just done a great job. You have a number of women on the Canadian Supreme Court, and it has been an inspiration to us.

Host
Well, on behalf of all the women in Canada, we know that we appreciate the women on our bench and we thank you for also setting the example for all these years. Thank you very much. Thank you.