Kent Walker
So, as you may have guessed, I am I am excited and truly honored to welcome to Google. Somebody who is a historic figure in American law. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was nominated to the court as the first woman on the Supreme Court in 1981. Serve until 1986. With with High Distinction, since that time has been a leader in the effort to educate America's kids about governance and civics and we'll talk a little bit at the end of today's presentation about some of the efforts along those lines using technology to try and help educate the leaders of tomorrow on those issues. She won the Presidential Medal of Honor was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Obama in 2009. And in has more recently, as you see, attended our fat guy session and had a conversation covering a lot of fascinating issues with regard to trends in the law, the current situation we have in our country with regard to politics and governance, and a lot of other issues. So I'm delighted to be able to continue that conversation today. And and Welcome to Google Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Okay.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Give me a little background, if you would, do you provide occasional talks from people here? Just as like you have 24 cafes and you have X number of talks?

Kent Walker
We do we have, ranging from presidential candidates to authors to we've had chefs come through any number of

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
that's a nice idea. Have you had any presidential candidates yet?

Kent Walker
Not Not for this cycle. But we're looking forward to it.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm sure they'll be opportunity. Yes, a plan. Well now he could have made a simpler in truck introduction because at present I'm just an unemployed cowgirl. I grew up on a cattle ranch in a remote area. The ranch was half in Arizona, half in New Mexico. The house was physically on the Arizona line. So technically my parents were registered to vote in Arizona, and we were Arizona, but it was a life that was very different. My friends as a child were the Cowboys. We had about six seven who stayed year round we got more for roundups, we would get a bigger crew. But day in and day out. We had a regular group of cowboys and my parents and that was about it, and occasional visitors. We did quite a bit of work at the ranch on horseback and so everybody had to have several horses. available that we're there's you don't ride somebody else's horse unless there's a real problem. And no two days real life because every day on the ranch provided a different set of challenges and problems and they weren't just alive. We had roundups twice a year or once in the spring once in the fall, and during roundups, it took a month each time to get all around the ranch with the different areas you were rounding up and branding. So that was always a major effort at the ranch. And there wasn't a school nearby when I grew up. And my mother initially thought she might teach me she had been a teacher and she tried it for a little while and didn't like it. I don't know whether it was because I was a bad pupil or what, but they decided to send me off to El Paso, Texas. Her parents, my maternal grandparents were living in El Paso. So I went there, and during the school year, I stayed with my grandparents and went to school in El Paso from kindergarten through high school. And I got pretty tired through the, by the time I graduated of learning about Stephen F. Austin, and Ola, Texas heroes, the courses we had, and we did have them on how government works were pretty boring in those days, but at least we had those courses we learned in school, how government work and how it worked at the national level in the state level, and not too much about how we could be part of it. But nonetheless, it was a part of the program. And I then graduated and I didn't know that I should apply to lots of schools for college. I wanted to go to college and my parents didn't tell me where to go and the The only one I applied to was Stanford. Well, that was about it was in 1947, I guess kind of the end of World War Two. And all like young man had been drafted. We were off. So Stanford was kind of short of students, I guess. So they took me.

Kent Walker
Most of those Cardinal Reggie sporting Today was a

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Stanford grad. And it was great. I lived it was the first year of it, they put women in brand or Hall and so I settled am in brand or Hall and got an undergraduate degree at Stanford took a class as an undergraduate from a someone everyone said was the most inspiring professor at Stanford. He was a professor at the law school. I need to audit occasional undergraduate classes. I took his class and it was really inspiring. I loved it. I didn't know lawyers, we were cattle ranchers as I told you, but I really liked what I learned in that class. So I had finished the requirements for my major in economics in three years. And I had a whole year ahead and where I could take anything I could have learned about Shakespeare and all kinds of good things. But I applied to law school instead. And they took me a year early. They took me early in the law school, which was a surprise and I went to law school, then at Stanford and finished that and three years in. Then I got out and I had met my future husband in law school, but he was a year behind me. And we decided to get married. And we were going to get married over at the lazy D ranch at Christmas time. And that was fine. But both of us kind of like to eat. We didn't have 24 restaurants. Hey, Andy, that meant one of us was going to have to work. And that was me. Now I had passed the California bar. And I wanted to work as a lawyer. I thought, okay, I've gone to law school. Now let's find out what the law practice is about. And Stanford bulletin board at the law school had all these notices on it, saying Stanford Law graduates call us we were here. We're a law firm, and we'd like to hear from you give us a call, we'd like to talk to you. There were about 40 notices I called every single one of them on the bulletin board, whether it was bay area or LA area or mid state. Not one of them would give me an interview. They wouldn't even talk to me. Why? I was way up there in my class. I mean, good record at Stanford Law Review. I will bet I was a woman and they didn't talk to women. About Our job anyway. And so I really had a problem because we didn't want to get married and we both want to continue eating. And so I knew I'm a young woman at Stanford whose father was a partner in a big California law firm. And I asked her if she would talk to her father and see if he would get me an interview. And she did. And he got me an interview. And the senior partner very distinguished man, look at my resume. Oh, mistake, you have a fine resume here. mistake, fine. But mistake, this firm has never hired a woman lawyer. I don't see the day when we will. And I looked sort of shocked, I'm sure. I didn't know bad. And he said, but our clients wouldn't stand for it. Well, there I was, and I really I still needed a job and I heard that the county attorney in San Mateo County, California right up the road from Reiner, Redwood City, that he had once had a woman lawyer on a staff and I. So I wrote him and asked him if he would see me. And he did. It's an elected position. It still is it was them. And I think you still vote for county attorney in California. So you know how elected officials are, if you're all glad hand or so glad to meet you. You might have to vote someday. So anyway, he was very gracious and we had a wonderful visit. And he said, Yes, I had a woman warrior here and she did a good job. I'd have another and you have a fine record Law School. He said, I'm sure you do a good job here. But mistake, we get our money from the county board of supervisors and I'm not funding to hire another deputy right and I just don't have the money to do it. And

looked rather heartsick, I'm sure. And he said, Well, let me show you around the office anyway, you're here. And so he walked me through. He didn't have many deputies. In those days. It was probably 15 in the whole office. And he walked me around, and I met some who were there. And he said, as you can see, I don't have a bacon office either. So I went back to the lazy be ranch to plan for the wedding. And I wrote him a long letter and the letters now in the in the County Museum, I think, and I told him all the things that I thought I could do for him if he would hire me. And I said, Oh, no, you don't have any money. But I'll work for you for nothing. You don't have to pay me anything. Until such time it's your office gets a little money and you can afford to pay me something, it doesn't matter. And he said, Well, I don't have an office to put anybody he told me that when I was there. And I said, I know who explained that. You don't have an empty office either. But I met your secretary and she's very nice. And there's room in there to put a second desk if she wouldn't object.

That was my first job as a lawyer, no pay. And I put my desk in with the secretary. Well, you know what, I loved my job. I got the most interesting questions to answer legal issues. And I got the right responses to the county officials or boards or commissions and try to solve their legal problems. And it was great. I really liked my job and my classmates, the man all had good paying jobs and law firms and California. They were happy. But they were just taking depositions and doing research and I was answering real questions. So I liked my job. And I guess I was there about four months I'd have to look at records to see about that long when that county attorney was appointed judge of the county when he was thrilled, and we were all so happy for him, that was a good thing. And that meant that it turned out my supervisor was then named county attorney till the next election, and I'd opened up a little money for a salary and an office to put a desk. So that's how I got started in this neck of the woods where you are right up the road. And I loved my job and it was a good start. So anyway, I ended up as you probably know, I'm going to make this very short, in Arizona. My husband and I married, he was drafted it was the Korean War, and he wasn't sent to Korea. He was sent to Germany. And we lived there for three and a half years and we just stayed over there until our money ran out because we like to ski and so we just stayed in Austria, kids feel. And when the money ran out, we came back and my husband started looking for a job as a lawyer. And he ended up taking a position in a wonderful law firm in Phoenix, Arizona. So we moved to Phoenix and that became, again, my home, Arizona. And to make it short, I had to open. Nobody in 1957. In Arizona, none of the law firms would hire a woman, we were back to the same thing. But I opened a law office in a suburb of Phoenix with a young man from Massachusetts who didn't know anybody in Arizona, so we just opened up and did whatever we can get. And it wasn't that kind of thing usually heard in the US Supreme Court, but it was all right. We took a lot of criminal appointments, they helped pay the rent. And that's what I did, and I ended up over the years having Three children and working in all three branches of Arizona state government. I was in the Attorney General's Office for some years, which I lived in an after I my private practice. And I became a legislator. I was in the Arizona State Senate for a while and my colleagues elected me Majority Leader of the Senate. And that was the first time in the united states that a woman held an elective, held a leadership posts in a legislature turned out and so that was an interesting position to add. And I thought I was getting too far removed from the law and I'd better get back to it. In those days, Arizona elected its judges. And while I was in the Arizona legislature, I co sponsored a constitutional amendment to go to merit selection of the appellate judges and the judges in the major counties. And that was controversial at the time, but I didn't think we ought to be electing judges. I still think that's the most state, Arizona pass that constitutional change by a very narrow margin. And we've had years now in Arizona, with that system in place, and it has produced very fine judges and a much better system. And I've spent a lot of time since my retirement, telling people all over the country don't have popular election of your judges use a merit selection system. Anyway, I at the proposition that I co sponsored past, but it hadn't been implemented yet. And I decided I'd better get back to the law. And maybe I want to be a judge and I had to run for it in a popular election. The thing I don't approve of

so I was able to prove to my satisfaction that it is a bad way to select judges. But I got approved and so I served as a trial court judge in Arizona. And then I had maintained an interest in all kinds of Arizona activities. And I was thinking actually, of running for governor of Arizona. And the man on the Democratic side who was running was a man named Bruce Babbitt. Remember him? And he was pretty good guy. But he was going to run for governor and he was afraid I would run against him, I think. And so he appointed me to the Arizona Court of Appeals, so I'd be out of the way. Well, it worked because I had these children at home and it was kind of hard to be away from home, which it would require if you were running for a statewide office. So I took the appellate court appointment I did not run for governor. And after a couple of years, I got a phone call from the Ronald Reagan Administration asking me to come back to Washington and talk about a vacancy. They didn't say what one. But there happened to be a vacancy on the US Supreme Court. And ronald reagan in campaigning, didn't think he was doing too well with women voters, and he had said in the campaign, now, if I'm elected president, and if I get a chance to fill a vacancy on the US Supreme Court, I'd like to put a woman on the court. Well, he hadn't been in office after his election more than about four months, when justice Potter Stewart retired, stepped down, and there was a vacancy. And so President Reagan then had to figure out whether there was a so called qualified woman to put on the Supreme Court There were very few women judges in those days Republican or Democrat. Really very few. I don't think the President had a wide range of options. But in any event, Ronald Reagan is, you know, love to ride horses. He liked ranch life. That was when he really liked fact there's something a cola, Reagan ranch right down the coast of close to the coast. And I think what he liked about me was that I grew up on a ranch and rode horses. I think that was the deal. I don't know that they have anything to do with my legal ability, I'm not sure. But anyway, I was asked to serve on the Supreme Court and that did open positions for women, not only in the United States, but around the world. It had a profound impact far beyond what I would have predicted. And that was a good thing. Because women just hadn't been given many chances until that happened. And since then, it has helped not only in this country, but in countries around the world. So I served on the Supreme Court for 25 years. My husband developed Alzheimer's, don't get it, if you can help it, of course, there's no way to prevent it yet, and we don't know at least. And he reached the point where he needed full time care in a nursing home and I wanted him back in Arizona for two of our three sons lived so he could have visits from family. And at that point, I decided I better step down from the court, which I did. And in that intervening time, I was kind of used to working I've done it, most of my life is you've just heard and I was hearing a huge amount of criticism about judges, we all were on the court people were calling them godless secular humanists trying to impose their will on the rest of us and many objections to judges from all over the country. And so with some of my colleagues on the Supreme Court, we organized the conference at Georgetown Law School and invited some very interesting, thoughtful leaders from all over the United States to come to that conference. And we had a really good program designed to try to explore what was being said about judges. Why was it being said, Why was this problems so acute. And

the conclusion of these intelligent people who participated in that conference, at the end of the day was its lack of education and under Standing about our government, people just don't have a good enough picture of the system of government we have and what goes into it and what's going on. And I thought, well, what can we do about it? And I got some of my former colleagues on the court together and a couple of other advisors. And we decided to try to start a website to be available to deal with the judicial branch. That was what I was hearing most of. And I thought maybe we could teach people something about the judicial branch out what it consists of, what are the people, what do they do? How do they do it? What do we think? So we got that setup. And it wasn't too long before our little organizing group and I felt, you know, it's silly to just talk about the judicial branch because what we see among young people, is lack of education about any part of our government. So we expanded it to all three. And it's now on a website, iCivics.org. And that brings us to today. So

Kent Walker
so so let's come back to iCivics toward toward the end of the hour. I want to focus in on your 25 years on the court for a moment if I could. You were rare, if not unique, and in recent years and coming to the core was such a wide range of experiences from the from the ranch from your service and state government, not having spent decades on a federal court of appeals. And as perhaps as a result of that your your voice was a pivotal one in almost every sense while you were on the court, leading some to call it the O'Connor court for many years of your service.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, that's an exaggeration.

Kent Walker
Do you think that your unique experiences whether you know from from the ranch as a Westerner, to some degree, there were a number of people from the west coast during your service out there? Did it lead to a more pragmatic approach to judging or otherwise influenced you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I don't know. I don't like to try to evaluate my own service and my own work. I don't think any of us can evaluate ourselves very accurately. But I think I do tend to consider the practical consequences of a decision if you decide best and so in the following way, what are the practical consequences of that in a future? What how does that affect this that the other thing I did like to think through those things, and I think probably that's a good thing to do, rather than just make some abstract legal decision without considering the practical consequences of the decision.

Kent Walker
Now, the nomination process This has become very politicized. You refer to some of the challenges around electing judges in your opening remarks. I understand that your advice to Justice Kagan was to be prepared for a very difficult confirmation process. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts about how the confirmation process has changed from the days that you went through it to today?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I was fortunate when I was nominated. It was 1981. And when I was nominated, the two senators from Arizona, one was a Republican, and one was a Democrat. I knew them both and knew them well. And they both immediately that very day, spoke out in public and to the press and to everybody saying, oh, Sandra O'Connor. I know her, I like her. That's a good choice. I'll support her. So that made a huge difference from day one. It meant that in my confirmation hearings, We were unlikely to have some huge battle between Republicans and Democrats over that appointment. And the other thing is, I frankly think the senators were a little nervous about voting against the first woman nominee. I mean, what would that do to their constituents who were female? Would they resent it? I suspect I don't know this for a fact. My senses that that caused members of the Senate at that time to be cautious before casting a no vote. And the result is I was confirmed 99 to nothing. Now, the one who wasn't there was max baucus, the Senator from Montana. And he wrote me a nice letter and sent me a copy of a river runs through it and said he was sorry he wasn't there, and he would have voted for me been so happy.

Kent Walker
Now, are you comfortable sharing with us, of the many decisions you participate in? The ones you're proudest of or not

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
going to do,

Kent Walker
though? Anything in hindsight, you would have done differently?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I don't know. And I never looked back. I mean, my policy on that court was to work as hard as I could, with every case, we agreed to do everything I could to find out the precedents on both sides and the history of that concept of law and find out everything I could and make the best decision, I thought I could make the decision and not look back. Now, I don't know about you and your work, but it seems to me you ought to put the work and at the front end, decided and go on. So that's what I did. Now, and I'm still not looking back

Kent Walker
So let me ask you, as somebody who authored some of the most important decisions of the court during that period on intellectual property law, bringing home to Google a little bit, including the face decision, which was a decision generally that held that you can't get a copyright when there's no creativity in the work on a phone book, for example. This was a unanimous decision. Yes. Which is an important aspect of this. Any we seem to have have moved to some degree, we see lots of software patents and other claims. How do you think about the balance between incentive innovation through these government granted monopolies, and giving the freedom to to create new things that aren't protected?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I think the issues are the same as they were in Feist. I mean, you have to start with the fact that you're going to have to make a decision of federal law and in that case, constitutional law, something that would be in place, presumably for a very long time and affect all kinds of things. So You wanted to feel comfortable with the legal principles you were expanding and hope that you're deciding it correctly for future years, and I still feel the same way. Like Feist was correctly decided. That's the way.

Kent Walker
Yeah. Now, you talked a little bit about the process of judging. Can you in the abstract, tell us a little bit with that? How often, for example, to the oral arguments matter to your decision? What's the

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
most of what you find out about a case? You find out before the oral argument, you do research, and you get your law clerks to do massive amounts of research on the legal issue. If there are helpful law review articles that have been written on the subject, this is often the case get them and read them, see what other scholars have had to say about it and do your own analysis and we get your clerks to help you analyze those issues to bring up everything, make them think the have in the way of questions about it. And when by the time you go to the oral argument, you have a tentative idea of how you think that ought to be resolved. You're not going into the oral argument, empty headed. You've got an idea already what you think might or sure to happen. And you are helped also by the fact that the parties to the case after file written arguments in something called briefs. I don't know why they're called briefs because they are brief. We have page limits, or maybe endless. Thank God, we have page limits, but they are long written arguments, setting out the views and analysis of the parties to the case. And the supreme court does something else that not every high court and other countries does. We allow other interests trusted entities and individuals to file friend of the court briefs, they're called Abacus briefs, in addition to the briefs of the parties, and somebody wanting to file on files a petition with the court, asking permission to file an amicus brief and if there are no objections, and it's a timely request, the court allows it. In many of the tough cases, those involving some new principle of law, you're in having huge stack of Damocles like that. You have a lot of things to read in before you go to the oral argument. And so when you go to the oral argument, the justices are probably 80% of the way to being able to reach a decision and they're very well informed and you use it to just kind of explore the x, how far the party would go who's arguing in other related areas and situations and how they defend against tough questions, you can ask them some. And the hour for oral argument goes by in a hurry. Now we've got something unusual coming up with this present term of the court. You've probably read a little bit about the medical care bill that was passed a year or so ago. Right. The Obama medical care legislation and different legal questions were raised concerning different aspects of that legislation was very complicated legislation, and there were cases filed in several of the Federal Circuit courts. I mean, in the trial courts and then on up to the Federal Circuit, appellate courts, dealing with that health care legislation and several at least Four or five of them have decided cases about it. And there are conflicting holdings out there so that US Supreme Court has taken a case it will be argued in the next three months sometime I don't know what month or when. And it presents many issues in connection with this law. And the court has already allowed five and one half hours for oral argument met case. That is astounding. That never happened in the 25 years I was there or any other time, I think, well, in the early days, they had unlimited URL or even, but once they started limiting the time, once in a while, the court would allow extended argument, but never anything like that. So I'm just looking forward to that. In fact, I wouldn't mind being back there and seeing part of the five hours myself, but we're really going to have a session about that healthcare bill.

Kent Walker
So do an issues like this I mean rain starting with with Roe v. Wade, there's been an awful lot of press attention in some cases, politicization of the the process around the decision making of the court. Has that press attention either on political issues or the concept of the swing vote, change the decision making processes that

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
you hope it doesn't it shouldn't there's no reason why you are not there to decide the case based on your impression as a judge of public opinion. I mean, come on. It's decided on the basis of legal precedent, and the text of particular provisions of the law that have been enacted, and the provisions of the constitution that are said to apply. That's the basis for the decision not public opinion.

Kent Walker
So given on the one hand, the concern about preserving the integrity of the Judging process, and then the other your commitment to creating more transparency, more visibility, more understanding of the judiciary. Look, what do you think about cameras in the courtroom and in the

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
court issues? Its opinions, the majority and the dissenting and that concurring opinions, every word of them is available to the public immediately. Immediately, if you want to hear what the Court has said, in this case, you will get a copy of it. Now, the oral arguments themselves are recorded. And you can hear those tape recordings, at least by the next day that's available. There is kind of a demand largely coming from members of Congress saying Oh, the court oughta have cameras in the court well, so that the public can see these arguments on TV and There is perhaps something to be said on that side, I'm sure of areas. But the court has never allowed cameras in the supreme court room. They're not even allowed when a justice and new justice this morning and when I took my oath is the first woman and 191 years to be on the court. There was no camera. We survived it, didn't we? IB it in the nation via it was okay. There were plenty of other pictures. So I don't have any idea whoever the president court will allow cameras for a bat case. If it doesn't one case, they're going to have to do it brothers sighs. So at least until now, the court has been pretty clear that it wasn't interested in having cameras in the courtroom.

Kent Walker
Let me shift up. It's a little bit. It Google, you obviously were, as you alluded to, as not only the first woman on the court, but in inspiration for a generation of women coming up not only in the law, but in a lot of different fields. It's an issue At Google we take seriously in terms of trying to encourage more women to get more involved in science and technology as well as other fields. What advice would you have for young women coming up today about how to be successful about how to how to follow in your footsteps or branch out in different directions?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I have advice that I give law students if I have a chance, I tell them, they have to learn how to disagree agreeably. Okay. Matt applies to all of you too. It's fine to have disagreements on policy, on legal issues on whatever it is, but do it agreeably I do not think we are ever benefited by shouting and yelling. Now I just read a biography. I think there was a guy down the road name's Steve Jobs or something and I What I read about that and the technique of yelling at people I did not like to read. I did not like to see, I really don't think that's the way to solve problems. I think you have to have reasoned discussion, not shouting matches. And I strongly believe that's the best practice.

Kent Walker
Now, obviously, we now have three women on the court. And yet some have said that that's we've seen it to some degree and that on one measure of diversity, but by other measures, the court is not as diverse as it could be.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, never looked the only nine of them. How many states do we have? 50. You're not gonna have 50 members of the court and one from every state. That's ridiculous. The court isn't set up that way. I don't think we should push for a larger court. It's just more complicated. I think nine has been a pretty good number. Now, there aren't enough Stanford graduates Express Perhaps but too many from Harvard. How many are you for? Are you from Harvard? Well, not many. We're okay out here on the west coast. But anyway, it's some. I you can't make the Supreme Court representative in the sense that you would if you were designing a legislative body, it's not. And your camp. What was the Don't worry about it. You just want good, qualified people.

Kent Walker
Is there is there an impact from diversity in the conversations when you when you go back into chambers, or you have the debates? What's the value of diversity in that context?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
The only thing that I really saw that was a help in having women back there. In general, I mean, just the concept women in general as opposed to how qualified the individual is, that's what matters smart woman is as helpful as a smart man. Okay. And it seems to me that in today's world, that our citizens, our population slightly here, over half are female. And I happen to think that women, residents and citizens of this state and this country want to see some women in the different institutions of government in front of us. I know I did. I feel better if some of the elected officials are female, if there's a good representation of females in the legislative branches, and on the bench, I want to see that that's the benefit, in my opinion, and it's just a matter of comfort as a citizen, that we're being fair in this country, with people of Both sexes.

Kent Walker
So let's talk a little bit about technology and start to turn back. Okay,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
now you're leaving you talk about it. Well, I, I understand you use the term not a techie,

Kent Walker
you use it. You use a tablet now I

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
have an iPad. Yeah. Sorry about that. I have one.

Kent Walker
What do you use it for?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Mostly putting books on. I had a Kindle, but I lost it somewhere. And so what I did with it, so now I have an iPad. And I use it primarily for that, but it's you know, it's good for some other things, too.

Kent Walker
So what do you see is the impact of technology on the law? You go back to the Department of Justice now they've got this beautiful library that no one ever seems to use. Is there a place for book filled places for study or will be technology all the time and study and practice?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I guess there is I you know, you're asking the wrong person. I'm old and I'm old fashioned. And I like books. I like holding a book. In my hands, I like turning the pages. I like having it in print. I like putting it there with some little stickers in it on the pages. I won't return back to. I like reading the quotes. Do I want to look it up on my iPad? No. But I mean, that's my habit. It's a lifetime of a habit. You have different average you're in another generation you are do so. You may like all that stuff, but I'm still not with it.

Kent Walker
Yeah, I think I'm halfway between you got you and most these guys out here, but I'll tell the

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
so and I like going to the library. And the other thing I like up there, if you've got a really complex issue, and you just this is something very hard to resolve. It's nice to pull out all the key cases in the past that have dealt with something related to the issue. You want to consider them all. So you get those decisions out. You pull the volumes out that have them. You might The pages that you want to look at, put them on tables up in the library in the Supreme Court and have the whole bunch out there in front of you. And you can go up there and figure out what you think. You've got them all there. Now you can do that I guess successively on a computer screen. But to me, it's not the same.

Kent Walker
So let's talk about something you find what some of you are focused on, which is the current state of civics generally. And you know, this is a time where there's been lots of talk about the the challenges we're having with our government and politics and in DC. And you've got a lot of folks are taken to the streets and camping outside saying the existing political process doesn't work. thoughts on that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, yes, I've already told you one of my main thoughts for people, is you, of course, you're going to disagree on policy issues. as citizens, you're going to disagree among yourselves. as legislators, you're going to have disagreements. I'm sure in business you're going to have disagreements, but learn how to disagree agreeably I've already told you that I just think that's terribly important. And you just have to learn to work with people and anticipate that you can have civil discourse, leading to better decision making. And that's what I favor in this country. And we need to make a push for a map to realize that you can have civil discussion of these issues and produce some the best possible decisions. No, we're not ever going to agree totally on all these things. You just have to do the best you can. And that's what I support.

Kent Walker
Do you think things in Washington are broken at the moment?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yep, pretty much. I mean, we don't see a lot of civil discourse going on. We see some shouting matches his matches, and we see very strong statements made in political campaigns. I guess you always will, but it seems to me it's a little Worse than it has been. I don't know what you think i think it's pretty bad.

Kent Walker
So tell us a little bit about your project to improve the level of discourse, the ice, okay?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
This nation got a pretty good system of government by the framers, they designed something that I still think is a very fine design for a democratic system of government. And we've lived with it pretty well. That design did not include public schools. Did you ever notice that had nothing to do with schools or education. And we went along for a little while, but in the 1830s people, thinkers in the United States, which was much smaller in those days, and it is now began to think what we really need is our public schools. They didn't there were not schools when our constitution was formed. There were a few little groups headed by some That would take some students, but there wasn't much in the way of schools. You had a Harvard and a William and Mary, and that was about it for upper level education. Well, anyway, we did not have a public school system. So I'm 1830, some of the intellectuals in the country began to say, we need to have a system of public schools in this country. And we need public schools so that all of our young people have a place to go to school and make and learn our system of government. See what the framers did, what a fine system it is, and make and learn to be good citizens. Well, we got public schools in this country, and that was considered a great achievement. Now today, we have, as you know, systems of public schools, we have a lot of private schools and charter schools and every kind of schools out there, but our students aren't doing very well. Gosh, When our high school seniors are tested along with those of equivalent grades in other countries, we're down at the bottom, certainly in math and science, and in some other areas, too. I don't think there's a single area where American high school seniors are the highest level that best ones seem to come from the Scandinavian countries, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and countries like that. We have to do better than we're doing. But even in our public schools today. The schools, half the states no longer make the teaching of civics and government or requirement half the states. Now, I don't think that our federal system of government is self explanatory. I think it needs some Teaching of young people what it is and why is it set up the way it is? Why did the framers do that? Now, does that work? We need education about that. And half the states don't do it anymore. And the other half may do all right, but not necessarily. And I just felt that one of the reasons we were having so much criticism of the judges was a lack of understanding about the role of a judge. What is it? I mean, what do you griping about let's get at it. And so, I think this is a time when we need to take a look at the structure of education. And because there is no instruction at all in half the states today about how our government works. I thought maybe we could develop a website. Now. That's where you all come in. We could put something on the computer and I it's we need to target Middle School up their first year of high school. Now middle school by the time you're in middle school, fifth through ninth, your brain has formed as much as it's going to. I mean, it's there. And maybe it in many good but what you thought you thought. And all the hormones haven't kicked in yet making you totally, totally worthless in high school, possibly. But in middle school, you're still started functional. And those are the years and you're eager to learn. I don't know if you remember being in middle school, but you're kind of interested you want to go to school, you might learn that stuff. I wanted to target middle school and teach them how our government works in hopes that they would also learn how the individual can be part of it. And

young people at age spend on the average 40 hours a week in front of a screen it might be dv or computer. That's a lot of hours. Now I don't need him to spend four hours on civics. But I'd like about an hour a week at least. And that would really help. And I thought we could develop a website and put games on it that kids would love to play, that teach him about the different aspects. They can play the role of President in a game, they can play the role of a legislator and they can take certain issues and deal with them. And do I ever write a case involving a T shirt with something on the school says, No, you can't wear it? Do they have a right to wear it when you be the lawyer and argue the case? I mean, there were many opportunities with a website and with games to get the kids engaged and I really thought that was the way to go. So we got started and got our MacArthur Genius Award winner who was at Arizona State University Dr. GMG to make first game It's terrific. It's just terrific. And the kids who played it, really liked it. In fact, they didn't want to quit playing. And you have to have. Well anyway, we now have eight team games on that website that deal with all aspects of how the government works, and with ways that they can learn to be part of it, and out, it works. And so I'm excited about it, because I think that's exactly the way to get their attention and make it work and make it fun. And my job now is to make schools in every one of the 50 states aware of it, and start using it. So that's what I'm trying to do. And I think we're going to improve the understanding of our young people about how the government works, and we're going to find ways to get them involved with projects and ways that they can Take something on and make it happen.

Kent Walker
So I think we have the executive director of iCivics Gene Koo around the corner of--Gene, you in the wings there, you want to--watch it--come on out for a second, grab grab a mic, and maybe you can give a quick plug for iCivics and they'll be a little bit about what's doing extra. And the older,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
you can lean on them. Right here. You say, do you have a microphone? I'm all wired up. Okay.

Gene Koo
So I'm Gene Koo. And when people ask me what I do, my quick answer is I make video games for Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. And that is absolutely a dream and an honor to be able to do that. And what I'd like to do just very quickly this morning is just to talk about how you might be able to get involved. And so as Justice O'Connor just shared, we have an amazing website, iCivics.org. If you go visit it, you'll see some of the games that we have out there right now for young people. But you know, I think when we start thinking about what our goal is.

When, when Justice O'Connor laid out the vision of iCivics, it's not just to teach knowledge about about government, although that is the prerequisite. But it's also to think about how do we get people engaged, actually engaged, young people to be involved in their communities and, and, and, and their local government and be involved and care. So one way you can get involved is is, is through something we're calling the iCivics badges. And I'll talk a little bit about that. But you might come up with other ideas, and I'd love to hear about it. If you go take a look at iCivics.org. And, and see something that you can help with, drop me a line, I'll have my email address right at the end.

But just let me talk a little bit about something we just did in March of this year, which was amazing. We started this thing called impact points. And what happens is you get points for playing our games. And what's amazing is that you take those points and you don't you don't win a prize for yourself. What you do is you donate those points to an organization that's run by another young person somewhere in the country. And every quarter who gets the most points, gets a small little grant from us. And what the young people are doing when they're, when they're playing with those, with getting those points is they're learning a little bit about how to vote with their points. But then also seeing and being inspired by other young people.

What can you do in your own community, so everything from domestic violence to the environment, to having more civil debate and conversation in their own communities, these are all the kinds of projects that we have been we've been featuring and every quarter, whoever gets the most points has been getting a small little grant from us.

And I can geek out for you a second. On Google Analytics. What we've, what we've seen is absolutely amazing. So right now we're, for one thing, we're seeing about 10,000 visitors unique visitors a day. And that's up four times over where we were a year ago. And this is with zero marketing, except of course for your Google Grants. We're not we're not having any other way of getting people to know about and yet the the traffic has been absolutely incredible. But what's really interesting is that after we introduce these impact points, the amount of time people just On our site went up very dramatically, you can see that that circle right there shows when we introduced these impact points. And you can see that by making the games a game, people really stuck around.

And so this idea that that Justice O'Connor was sharing this now about getting a maybe just an hour of young people's time a week is actually becoming a reality. People are the average time is jumped up to eight minutes. And so all of you who know anything about websites, mystics would know that it's very rare to actually have your number of visitors go up and your average time for a visitor go up at the same time. So what we're seeing is is a real thirst and a real hunger out there by young people for this kind of, of experience. And then introducing these impact points is really made a huge difference. Now, that's just a small step towards where we really want to go, which is to think about how do we get young people involved in the real world. And so just out of curiosity, just how many people here were involved with with Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts? I thought so because you know, when you have when you have a slogan, don't be evil, you would attract a lot of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Well, you know, as you can see right here, we've got the merit badges from from Girl Scouts. And what we're trying to think through right now is how to take this idea of the points and the badges that we have in our website right now, and extended it to 21st century badges. And so what can we do to, to bring basically what people are doing the real world and then put it on an Android device, and and then be able to, to be able to give out badges and some kind of reward for young people who are getting involved in their community. So just like we saw this huge impact on our site, with people playing our games, when we added these impact points and badges to our gaming system,

Gene Koo
what can we do to help make it really exciting for young people to be out there doing community service, doing work in their own communities getting involved with with civic life, in their schools and around them? So I know a lot of you, you know, have the ability to do this, you know, the 20% thing. And what I'd really invite you to do is think about is that something that You can do help us think through this, because we don't really know a lot about mobile. And I think to do this, right, we're gonna have to figure out how to make it work on mobile and do a lot of other exciting things. So that's one way you can get involved. But I'm sure there's 1000 other ways you could do so I really encourage you to check out iCivics.org. And if you have any ideas, please just contact us. That's that's a Gmail account, by the way, so you can contact us and then just think, let us know how you'd like to get involved. So thank you so much for sharing your time with us this morning and love to hear from any of you who are excited about getting involved with civics and re engaging America and civic education and making sure our young people can be great citizens of the future.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Gene, thank you.

I want to echo that because I we really need your ideas for how we can make this the most engaging thing possible. What can we offer and we don't have money to offer By the way, we keep this Free for the user. We charge nothing for the schools to use it. And so we're not in there for the money but how can you help us engage people, young people to really want to get involved in little competition in how to better their community? This is a great thing. So help us think through we want your ideas.

Kent Walker
So so let me wrap it up. We're at the top of the hour. Thank you so much for taking an hour to share your your thoughts, your your your life, your work. You are clearly America's favorite retired cowgirl. Thank you.