Unknown Speaker
Nice to see.

Elizabeth Davis
Good afternoon. I'm Elizabeth Davis, executive vice president and provost at Baylor University. It's my pleasure to welcome you to the third on topic with President ken starr conversation is indeed a privilege to participate in an event that brings together so many students, faculty, staff, and friends from the community. Baylor's motto is pro athletes sia, protect sauna, for the church and for Texas. While our full our commitment to the church has not changed and will not change the demands of a globalized 21st century require us to think about our commitment to Texas as a metaphor for a commitment to the world beyond our borders. And that vein, these on topic conversations between our president and world renowned experts are designed to stimulate dialogue within our community on issues vital to us all. Joining judge star today is Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Justice O'Connor was the first woman to serve on the United States Supreme Court. her accomplishments are extraordinary, particularly in light of the era in which she began her career. Sandra Day O'Connor was born in El Paso, Texas, and grew up on her family ranch. The lazy be in South Eastern Arizona during the Depression. Her parents were determined that she gained an education but the options were limited given remote location of the ranch. So her parents center to live with her grandmother to attend school, and she graduated high school early. At the age of 16 and 1946 she was accepted to Stanford University, where she earned a bachelor's degree in economics, and then remained for law school. She completed her law degree in just two years, graduating near the top of her class of 102 students, right along with another future Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist. Justice O'Connor began her career in public service as a deputy county attorney in California. After moving to Arizona, she served as a state Assistant Attorney General and then in the Arizona Senate. In 1972, she became the first female in the United States to serve as the majority leader in a state senate. Shortly thereafter, she was appointed to the Arizona Court of Appeals in 1981. She was nominated by President Reagan and confirmed by the United States Senate to serve as a justice on the United States Supreme Court. She served the court with distinction for 24 years, and her important opinions on issues of privacy, religious freedom, and discrimination continue to shape our national conversation. In 2009, President Obama awarded Justice O'Connor America's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. This award is bestowed on individuals who make especially meritorious contributions to the security or national interest of the United States to world peace, or to cultural or other significant public or private endeavors. Since stepping down from the bench Justice O'Connor has dedicated her time and energy to civics education in the United States. Under her leadership, the program known as I civics was born in 2009. The purpose of our civics is to create free and innovative educational materials so that young Americans will become knowledgeable, engaged 21st century citizens. In just two years, I civics has produced 16 educational games, as well as engaging teaching materials that have been used in classrooms in all 50 states. It is the nation's most comprehensive standards aligned civics curriculum that is available freely on the web. And a conversation just over a year ago, Justice O'Connor challenged Baylor's law school and School of Education to develop a model for I civics that incorporates law students in the I civics classroom, and conducts research on the efficacy of the program. She's in Waco today and tomorrow to learn about the model we have created. We are deeply on honored to welcome Justice O'Connor to our campus in our community. And we look forward to hearing her remarks. Please join me in our president ken starr and welcoming Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Thank you very much.

Ken Starr
Thank you, Dr. Davis.

Welcome home to Texas, Justice Connor
Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, this is a first for me in all the years that I spent in the El Paso area. I never get it got a far as Baylor. And I'm so glad to be here. I really am, it's wonderful. And especially with your new president, Ken Starr, you could not have a bigger star on your Horizon.

Ken Starr
Thank you. Well, we're honored by the Justice's visit, just a comment about what will unfold. We're going to have a conversation up here. But happily, a number of you are joining that conversation. You submitted questions before this began. And those questions have already made your way to my colleagues and we were looking at the questions. So thank you for the thoughtfulness that went into that. And so welcome to the conversation. Just a word about what the Justice can and then cannot speak to. Even though she is a retired justice, she is still an active article three judge and so it'd be inappropriate for me to prepare any quote she knows how to say no comment. But it would come with all grace for me to ask a question about what do you think about the whatever case or the issue even the issue generally. So you will see that while you might want to know how Would she vote at a particular issue that might be pending in the Supreme Court of the United States? This is not the forum for that. In fact, there is no forum for that at all. It's one of the glories of our system, that our judges and justices are to be fiercely independent and to protect that independence, even though they're gracious enough to be in communication with us in these kinds of settings. And so would you again, join me in saying welcome home to Justice Sandra Day O'Connor.

Dr. Davis said it Well, the first woman to be appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States. It was about time, we'll talk about

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
191 years,

Ken Starr
I'd say that's about time.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yeah, about time, I would say. More or less.

Ken Starr
And it was one of President Reagan's proudest, proudest moments.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
But you play a hand in that, didn't you?

Ken Starr
Well, I'm proud of playing a very small--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
--so if I've made a bunch of problems, he's going to have to take part of the blame.

Ken Starr
Even though I didn't get a vote on the Supreme Court, but but be that as it may--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Attorney, the Attorney General at the time was William French Smith and very nice man and he had done legal work for Ronald Reagan years before and became our attorney general. And the Attorney General sent Ken Starr and two other people out to Arizona to check my record out there. And talk to me, I, I wasn't told it was a vacancy on the court, but apparently that was the deal. And so we spent a long day talking and my husband was there.

Ken Starr
And dear John O'Connor--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
We sat in our adobe house out on the desert side of Phoenix and spent the day talking.

Ken Starr
What happened to your adobe house?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, it almost got destroyed. When, when I was appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States, my husband and I had to move to Washington, DC because the court doesn't sit all around the country. They stay in Washington. So that's a long way from Phoenix, Arizona. So we had to leave the house. And it was sold to somebody and they in turn got moved and it was sold again. Then it was sold again. And it ended up in the hands of a bachelor who decided he'd like to tear it down and build a big place for himself, because it wasn't a big house. It was made out of sun-dried adobe. Now I don't know, here in Waco, you probably don't have a lot of adobe houses. You have too much rain, right? But anyway, sun-dried adobe means the adobe bricks are made and they're just dried in the sun. They aren't--they aren't very hard. I love sun-dried adobe, somehow it belongs to the desert. And it belongs to where we were putting it. And they were ended up being made out of the Salt River bed in Tempe. And it's just such a special look and feel. So I'm very thrilled that at the end of the day, the house is still there. And we used it in the years we had it, quite often, to get groups together and I'd tinker with making some chalupas and Mexican food of some kind. We probably find some cold drinks people could have. And we'd sit outside on the patio by the adobe house and get acquainted with fellow legislators, other leaders in the community, and try to discuss what we ought to do about certain problems. That was a time when civil discussion could lead to civic action. It didn't have to be war. And that's the big thing we have to worry about today, in my opinion.

Ken Starr
One tool is to understand our constitutional framework, the rule of law, these graded during values and thus iCivics. Justice O'Connor, tell us what's iCivics designed to do?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
To teach young people how our government works and how they as individuals can be part of the discussion, and part of what happens and get them involved in being good citizens. And this is a big word, because in Texas, I think over 50% of your students, 50.3% of your students are Hispanic, today. Did you know that and they possibly have had a more recent experience coming to this country. We have a lot of education to do, I think. And it was my hope that with I civics, we could develop some games that young people can play on a computer and learn how things work, how government works and how they have a role in it and how they can be involved. Now, this is a big order, but it's doable. Because of how we operate today, young people today, particularly middle schoolers, spend 40 hours a week on the average in front of a screen, TV and or computer. Imagine that's a lot of time. It's more time than they spend listening to their parents, I can tell you that. It's huge. And I don't need 40 hours, I need about one hour to put them in front of a screen. And we'll get them in front of an eye civics program. And they'll learn something. And what we did with AI civics is to get some talented people to help us devise games that the young people play that teach them some aspect of our legal system. We got together a group of fabulous teachers of the middle school high school partner Knowledge and use them as advisors to tell us specifically what area we should focus on to teach the kids in game number one, quarterback, game number two, and so on. They've been given us great help. And then because young people love to play games, we reduce what we want to teach two games. And we've kept it free. So the student, the teacher, anybody can go to the website www.ai civics.org now why the god it's just because everything's and I you have iPods I everything. So when we were thinking of a name, we thought, Well, if we want our widely used it better be I something rather iCivics. I thought it was pretty good.

Ken Starr
It's a great idea. Yeah, great name

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And the games are fun. They are just interesting to play, you'd like it. Go on the website and check it out yourself. The games are fun. And we used this cadre of wonderful teachers of young people to guide us in what subjects we should tackle with the games and we follow back and then you use Did you know there are people whose business it is to design games to be played on the internet? Well, I did that I know it now. And there's some very talented people. So we tell them what we want to teach and on what, you know, this is what we want to convey. And then back come some ideas for games to deal with that, and it's great to play. So go on that website and check it out.

Ken Starr
At Waco High School this last week, a number of us participated in a class, we were observing the students, and they were role playing members of Congress, members of the Senate. They were president. They were judges, were justices on the Supreme Court. And one of the comments by one of the students was, "Being president is hard." Because some of the duties of the president came rolling through and the President was having a very busy day on iCivics that day. What are some of the student reactions that have impressed you, Justice O'Connor?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
The fact that they really like playing the games, and that they will go back and do it. I had it. I tested it. With a young man, up in Chautauqua New York. I like to go there for a week or so in the summers. I don't know if you've ever been it's a lot of fun. And so at the house next door to where I was staying, there was a little boy about somewhere 10 to 12. He was staying there with his grandparents and he was from a town in Pennsylvania. And so we met We were chatting, and I said, Now listen, Charlie, you have access to a computer. He said, Yes, I do. I said, Now tonight, go dial up www dot i civics.org and play one of the games on it. And then tell me tomorrow which thing, this was when it was brand new. And so he said, Okay. And the next day, I was able to see Charlie, I couldn't wait to see him. And I finally did. And I said, Well, did you play a game? Oh, yes. Well, Was it fun? Oh, it really was. He said it was so good that I started after supper. And finally, about after midnight, my grandmother came in and made me put it down and go to sleep. He said I didn't want to, but I mean that was my first reaction that it was so absorbed. He wants to stay up all night and keep playing the games.

Ken Starr
It's clearly fun. Do we know that the students are learning?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
We do. And I lead back to some of the studies done here at Baylor. I was thrilled, frankly, that Baylor with the health of your president here, agreed that it would help us evaluate Isaac see how it works, see how its best spread around the country in us. And it's been a huge help. I mean, your teachers here, and your students and the people of Baylor have played a very important role in letting the producers of I civics know whether it's effective and what needs changing and how it could do better, and how we get it spread around the country. Because my goal is to get people all across this country, better educated and Our government works. When we got public schools in America, it was with the argument that the framers had designed this good new form of government. It was ingenious, wonderful. But we have to teach it to all of our citizens so they know how they are part of it and how this government works. And in the early years, the reason we got public schools was to teach civics in effect. That was why we got it. Public Schools, so that young people in this country, year after year would learn how the government works. Well today as I told you, states are stopping teaching. We don't do well against some other nations in math and science do we are scores are not as good. So we're focusing now as a nation on math and science and little time spent on teaching reading, but civics is just No, it's not on the list. And it's getting short shrift and a good many of the states have stopped making civics a requirement in public schools. I think that's a tragic error. I don't think we can ever stop teaching every generation how the government works and how their artifact what they can do. That's essential.

And I am thrilled that we have a core exhibit now in coming from Baylor in Texas, because Texas believes in civics. I went to school in El Paso, and I got so tired of civics I couldn't stand it, we had it every year, and it got a little tiresome. But--

Ken Starr
So you know who Stephen F. Austin is.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
That's all we heard about, him and Sam Houston. So, but we've got some other figures to talk about these days.

Ken Starr
That prepared you for Stanford,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Apparently so. Or else they took me despite that. I'm not sure which it was.

Ken Starr
She did very well in Texas history.

The Justice cannot be involved in fundraising, because she is a sitting judge. And so others, and this is not a fundraising event. This is a background comment. Different foundations have come alongside this effort because of their sharing the justice is concerned about what the justice is called the collapse of civic education in the United States. Happily, that has not happened in Texas. And we're honored that she has chosen Texas and other states from becoming involved Florida and other states. But there's a new bill introduced in the House of Representatives and it's a bipartisan bill and that's very refreshing,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Unusual these days.

Ken Starr
So we're very happy about that. That and it's called, are you ready for this? The Sandra Day O'Connor civic learning act. Is that a great name for a proposed bill? Now, there had been previously federal funding, but that ended up being eliminated. And so this act seeks to provide a mechanism for federal funding as part of education dollars otherwise flowing, but it's tied to testing. So that is just a key key component to bear in mind. And one of the roles that we're having to to play here at Baylor happily is to assist in terms of the evaluation and the testing the metrics and so forth. If this comes to pass, if this bill becomes law, what do you think that will do in terms of helping iCivics in this next phase?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
You know, I really don't know, I don't put any stock in some bill in the Congress of the United States, I don't know about you, but--

Ken Starr
As I said, we'll applaud--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'll reserve judgment.

Ken Starr
Well applaud it if it if it isn't--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And I need to explain how you explained to them that I'm still a sitting judge. Well, I did retire from the supreme court after 25 years. But I'm still eligible to sit on the lower Federal Courts of Appeal or the district courts for that matter. I'll tell you a little story about that. But I have chosen since my retirement to sit several times each year at one one or more of the Federal Circuit Courts of Appeal. And this spring, I sat first of all on the Fourth Circuit down in South Carolina. They are so gracious there, you oughta all go do something in South Carolina. It's amazing. Then I sat with the Third Circuit in Pennsylvania. And I'm going to sit now not again until fall. And I'm going to sit with the first circuit up in New York. At least it keeps my hand, modestly, on cases in the federal court system. And you're not apt to get the kind that comes to the US Supreme Court. You could. But that's not typical. But that's what I've been doing.

Ken Starr
Well, and all to good effect, and we're glad that you're still sitting articles for a judge. The Supreme Court of the United States is the authoritative interpreter of the Constitution of the United States. Benjamin Franklin as he was leaving the Constitutional Convention on September 17, 1787, response to a question about what kind of government that was being proposed for the ratification process. "A Republic, madam, if you can keep it." I think iCivics is part of that effort. Reflect, if you will, on your service on the Supreme Court.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It was amazing. You can imagine, because the Supreme Court receives petitions from parties to cases already in the federal court system. Coming up by way of the district court, or of MM in the federal courts of appeals who sit across the United States, and the losing party can file a petition for surgery, or in some cases and appeal. That's a technicality. I won't explain to you today. But they can apply to the Supreme Court to have the case argued and decided there. And one of the big jobs of a justice is to be part of deciding which of those petitions the court should have. Except in here, the courts not obligated to take those cases. And the justices actually read every petition that's filed. And then any justice can ask that a particular petition be put on a discussion is so the nine members of the court go around the table and in turn, talk about it and then vote on whether to take it. And the Supreme Court follows a rule of its own making, that it takes the agreement of only four of the nine justices to accept one of those cases. That is petitioning the court. And a huge part of the job of being a justice is to read all those petitions for search to marry. We call them cert, petitions for short. And they come we get over 10,000 a year. Now at the There was never a day in their 25 years that I didn't have cert petitions to read. And I would just make a little note for myself on each one. Should should, am I going to vote to deny this? Or is it one that we should discuss, and possibly grant. And that's a big part of being a member of the court is looking at the petitions and seeing which ones to hear. The other big part of the work is when the court accepts a petition and says, All right, we're going to consider this. The parties have to come present their case to the members of the court. They filed written briefs. I don't know why they call them brief. They're long. And they're written arguments that tell you all their reasons why they think if you're the petitioner, the court should take certain action and then you get one from the Responding side as well. And the lawyer for the petitioner is then scheduled to come to the court and make an oral argument. It's sometime during that term. And the other side gets to make an argument on the other side of the issue, the oral argument schedule at the court. And both are interesting and interested. Other interested individuals or groups can file friend of the court briefs with the court called Atticus briefs, but they're allowed to file them to an often for a single Ace of the court. You will get a stack of briefs that I from the parties and from friends of the court, so there is a huge amount of reading at the court. I would read all day and take things home and read until it was time to go to sleep at night. Get up early and Morning and start reading again. You never run out of reading material that you need to do a report never. And then the oral arguments that the court are very interesting to hear most of them. I mean, a few of them could put you to sleep. But

typically they only get anywhere from 20 to 25 minutes aside, to make their oral argument, and that's not a long period of time, then the other side gets to make up their argument. And the justices get to ask questions during the argument. They don't have to submit him writing like you did. But they they get orally as the lawyers questions. And so it's an interesting time to be there. And when you are in Washington, if it's a time for oral argument, you ought to try to go to the court and sit in on one of those sessions, because it's fascinating recently. There was a huge demand for seats on the court to hear the arguments on the health care law that President Obama encouraged to be signed. And then there was a case the following week, the last week at the court that came from Arizona, dealing with laws regulating illegal, suspected illegal immigrants in Arizona. And that raises some very touchy legal issues that will be of much interest in Texas because you have a long border with Mexico, as Arizona, and so seats in the courtroom were in big demand. That last week now the courts finished for the summer so you breathe a big sigh of relief. They haven't issued the opinions yet.

Ken Starr
You mentioned these touchy issues some of the questions That came in which the Justice can't comment on the substance of, but affirmative action, free speech, flag burning race relations, just a wide variety of very controversial--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
criminal cases, of all kinds.

Ken Starr
Without obviously even asking you to comment, which you wouldn't do anyway. Just if you would describe the process inside the court in terms of the dynamics, the interpersonal dynamics. You know one another.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yeah. You start with the discussion of petitions for certiorari, any petition that any one of the nine justices wants discussed will be put on our discussion. So that's one thing, as I've explained to you, we do, and even that discussion can be interesting. And it takes only four of the nine justices to accept a case or oral argument. That's good. I think it doesn't require a majority of the court to say yes, we'll hear that. It allows the minority of four to force the full court to hear an issue. And that's a good thing, I think.

Ken Starr
is it, to use a term from Congress, is it okay for one justice to be "lobbying" another justice?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
What do, I, you certainly could I mean, I could go tell Bill Rehnquist, my old classmate: "Now, Bill. I'm listing this thing for discussion. Dealing with the right to bear arms. I think, you know, what, when I mean, now, I really think the court ought to hear that. What do you think? Is that something you can support?" Discussions like that with your colleagues about cases that are listed for discussion, and I think it's appropriate to do, and then some other colleague might say, "Well, I know it's an issue maybe we should take, but there's a defect with this one, because..." and then tell you what some problem is that might prevent you from ever reaching that decision, if you took that particular case. I mean, that kind of out-of-court discussion takes place all the time. Just going to have water.

Ken Starr
The Justice has written two books. I bet you a lot of folks in here have read at least one and perhaps both of them but the Lazy B which is her brother and her recollection of life on the Lazy B. And then--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
If you haven't read it, it's a lot of fun.

Ken Starr
And then The Majesty of the Law, inspired by a particular, what you might want to say what it was inspired by, there at at the court.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, we just have these wonderful engravings at the court and we have in the court room, carvings of some of the great law givers of all time around the room. So you're never away from messages that remind you of the importance of the work that the court does. And I think that's very special and very touching.

Ken Starr
And one of the phrases is entitled the majesty of the law, which--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It's the one above the bench where we see...

Ken Starr
...the name of the book. In that book, you note that back some time ago, under Chief Justice Taft, so going back a century, the vast majority of Supreme Court opinions and judgments were unanimous, and how do you respond to the charge that in more modern days that the court has become much more divided and then, arguably more politicized?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It's happened before it isn't a modern court phenomenon. Look at Franklin rose. about yours. And kind of the end of that court was severely divided many times on cases. So there are nine members and to get a holding of the court, you need five. It said that Justice William Brennan, when he was hiring law clerks would receive him in his office, and he'd hold up his hand. And the clerk applicant would say, Well, Mr. Justice, you're holding your hand up for five. May I ask why? Five. That's how many votes you have to have on this court to win your face. And the rule of five it's the rule of four to get one accepted. For the court to hear it only take this for to have a holding of the court on any issue a federal law takes Five. And that's what every justice strives to achieve. When you're assigned to write an opinion for the court, you want to get five, at least, you'd like to get nine by been for, you know, the only have to have the map. And so that's a big part of your job there if you're assigned to write a case for the court and the Chief Justice does pretty much for other justices do, but the chief has the power to assign opinions and the other justice don't have that power. So after you've had your conferences, cases are argued the oral arguments take place at the court. We've already read the briefs. They are in a psychology they're not great. They're long. We've read them all. We've heard the oral argument and then you have a conference. nine justices and go around the table. Now in the United States, the first speaker around the table, and nobody else is present. There's no staff. We don't make recordings of it. It is not believe me, it's just the no and no little record me. Alright. So go around the table, and each one starting with the chief justice and then the most senior justice around to the end. You hear each one and they can speak as long as briefly as they want, and they'll tell you how they plan to vote on Mac case. When I ended up on the Supreme Court, I went to oral arguments for the first time I had never visited the court to hear an oral argument. I had never sat there for one until I was on the bench. And I sat there, that first week of oral arguments and listen to the cases and it's so astonishing to be up on the bench and look out there, the people who were there to watch and to listen to the lawyers are you and they are as close to the justices as the people on the front row are to me that's quite close. I'd be nervous if I were a lawyer, because I mean, you're just right there with them. Anyway, then, later in that week, the nine justices get together and may sit around the conference room table and go around and each one tells how they think the case should be decided. Okay, Smith versus Jones, and the Chief Justice starts the discussion. And he says, whatever he's going to say, Well, in this case, I thought a bad or good while and it seems to me, we're really pretty much bound by the O'Connor decision, battle in whatever it was. And so we were in half to affirm in the This case and I guess that's what I do. And he may have more to say about it. Then it goes to the most Senior Associate Justice. And on around the table until you get to the junior justice, the newest justice, and map first week when I sat on the court, the very first case where I participated in the discussion came to me four to four.

And that happened to me. So I mean, here is the last justice you say your vote doesn't count. It does when it comes to you for to for your guessing the deciding vote. Isn't that amazing?

Ken Starr
and justice Breyer served as the junior justice for 11 straight? Yeah, there was such stability on the court. Let's go back. Time is evaporating to the ladies As much as Texas loves to claim you as a native Texan, you are--

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm a product of that ranch.

Ken Starr
The Lazy B. And you say in the foreword to the book by the title of the ranch, the name of the ranch lazy VU say that you and your siblings learned a lot out on the ranch. And now I'm quoting, most of all, we learned how to be responsible for the care and the nurture of all of our livestock and equipment and of the land that we did you reflect on your experience growing up in the ways of

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
it was so amazing people today can't even imagine what it was like. The ranch we had was large It was about 300 square miles. And we had to take care of all of them. We have quite a few panels who were spread out over the ranch and we raised our Horses we had quarter horses and we had horses that we cared for. And you had to do everything. There wasn't a yellow pages that you could call. We didn't have telephones. You couldn't call anyone. If something broke. We had to fix it. We had to get it running. If some animal on the ranch had injured itself, we had to collect that animal some way. Get it into the main ranch area. Tie it in some way and treat the injury and hope we could get it well we have certain medicines we can dispense to the cattle in emergencies. You had to do everything at the ranch yourself. When the windmill broke down. We had to fix it and that was like idiots job. If the car broke down. We have to fix it. One more handyman. I mean, you had to do it all. And it was it was with a real sense of responsibility that we live there in the minute we were old enough to go out and some pasture and look for some particular animal and they're all bred to look exactly alike. So, anyway, we had to be responsible for doing that, getting our horse saddling up, going out, getting some, it was a place for early on, you learned a sense of responsibility. But it was also a place that was interesting. You never knew from one day to the next what to be doing, or what adventure you'd have or what you would see. There could be amazing things happening in the outdoors is you know, we had plenty of wild animals that you could see and run across and it was fun. And we we didn't like jack rabbits and we didn't like coyotes. So we didn't go Any place in a car without a 22 rifle. And if if the driver spotted f coyote then the passenger had to get busy and shoot it across country and you'd be jumping up and down over the bumps and trying to shoot some tires. And it was very exciting stuff. And we had big steel rim tanks with water at various points on the ranch where we needed to distribute water to the cattle in trunks where they could drink and we store it in these big steel rim tanks. And so that's where I'd swim. That was my swimming hold the big steel ram tank at the ranch. I remember. I had a cousin who was exactly a year older than me. She was living in Corpus Christi and we would get together every summer she was wonderful. And my parents wanted to go into town once Somewhere day to get the mail or do something and we didn't long ago we were swimming in the tank. So we said no, no really this year we're not going swimming. Well that was not that thing to say. My father went down and got his Lariat rope and he waited till one of us had to come up from underwater to get air and he just last Dragon CM said you're going into down your now you didn't have much choice. It was so funny.

Ken Starr
Now you see why she went to law school.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I had to learn my rights about getting wrong.

Ken Starr
And she didn't have I civics.

Let's talk before Dr. Davis comes to prepare and some questions from our audience colleagues here. teachers and professors at Baylor, we honored Teaching and we honor great teachers. We have a title, you met one of the great teachers, Tommy Lou Davis, master teacher. And to us that's Summa Cum Laude. That's it, yeah. cannot do any better. Now, a few years ago, you were speaking at your alma mater at Stanford, and a law professor, who you had had was, was being honored. Professor Harry Rathbone. And you said and reflecting on his career that at the end of each semester he gave a closing lecture, but it was not about law. It was something beyond law and law practice. So, tell us what that great professor said that stuck with you.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
He was a fantastic man. And indeed he is why I went to law school. I didn't wait till his end of the year off. Somebody had told me that he was a herb professor. He was at the law school at Stanford. And I managed to find out when he was speaking one day and went to hear him. And he was so inspiring that I applied to law school. I know lawyers for heaven's sakes, out on the lazy beat we didn't know or error about what I heard him. And I just couldn't. I had never heard anyone so profoundly moving as he was, for whatever reason. He spoke to me. I mean, I heard what he was saying, and it resonated in my bosom. And so I applied to go to law school and they took me to my surprise, but it was because of Harry Rafa. And he was getting older at the time. So I only had one class from as a professor at Stanford. But I just remember him so well and he spoke of personal responsibility. Obviously that was his thing that we all owe a debt to society, I shouldn't put it that way because he wouldn't. But our role in life has to be to learn everything we can and then to pass on those lessons that matter to those younger than we are, or others who want to hear. And that we each have this responsibility to try to leave the world a better place if we can, to help in some way make our society better. And that spoke to me a lot. I don't know about you, but I had no burning desire to be an architect or a doctor, or even a lawyer. But I did want to find ways that I could contribute to helping our society, our nation. Our Place where we live, do better and be better. And how wonderful to try to be part of a process like that, however, all how wonderful to try to do that. And so he meant everything to me in applying the law school and trying to make what I learned, be helpful.

Ken Starr
A great tribute to a great teacher. Speaking of a great teacher, would you welcome back to the podium? Dr. Elizabeth Davis, our executive vice provost and great teacher

who is armed with your questions.

Elizabeth Davis
Justice O'Connor, we had a large stack of questions that we have cold through and so we have four for you. Before we call the afternoon to a close

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
we you can ask him questions. It's all right, your friend is a good question. Answer

Elizabeth Davis
well, and I have them here in front of everybody else. take that opportunity.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
You might like that. I know.

Elizabeth Davis
A lot of people want to know whether you've encountered any discrimination in your legal profession, because you're a woman off tell you a story.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
My husband was John O'Connor. He passed away three and a half years ago from Alzheimer's disease. And he was absolutely marvelous. He was the funniest man. you've ever been around me. He could make you laugh and do it every single day. So that was pretty nice. But anyway, all right. Now your question was more direct than that. Come on.

Elizabeth Davis
Discrimination

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
discriminate? Yeah. Okay. So John and i got engaged to be married. And we, I had graduated from law school. I had passed the California bar. I was ready to go to work. He was a year behind me. And we both like to eat. magnet one of us had to work. So that was me. Stanford had notices on the bulletin board in the law school. Stanford Law graduates call us, we want to talk to you about our job. Oh, it has a number in a name. I call 40. numbers and talk to 40 people in 40 different law firms. Not one of them would even give me an energy. I was female. Now, that was 1952. But that's how it was. Can you believe that? And I was so ignorant. When I went to law school, I never asked how hard it would be to get a job as a woman. I didn't even think about it. I mean, I did everything on the ranch and I thought there wouldn't be any problem. I really didn't occur to me. And I was astonished that Could not even get a job interview. I went to an undergraduate woman friend of mine at Stanford whose father happened to be a partner give some done on fracture, big firm in Los Angeles. And he arranged an interview for me and I made the trip to Los Angeles from Stanford, and met with this distinguished lucky man like this and a student, you know, wonderful gray hair. And he looked at my resume, Ole Miss day, you have a fine resume here, mistake, mistake. This firm has never hired a woman lawyer. I don't see the day when we will. I looked shocked. He said, our clients wouldn't stand for it. And I just I'm sure I crumbled up a little bit right in front of him. And he said, Well, Miss day, how well do you type and I said so. So He said, Well, if you type well enough, I might be able to get you on here as a legal secretary. And I said, Well, thank you, but I didn't want to do that. I really want to work as a lawyer. So thanks for the interview. Goodbye. Well, that left me in kind of a pickle. I had heard that the county attorney in San Mateo County, California, just north of Stanford, had once had a woman lawyer on his staff. I wrote him a letter and asked for an appointment to see him and he gave me an appointment. You know, these elected officials do that. So he agreed to see me and I went to see him. Oh, mistake. You have a fine resume. He said I did have a woman here for a while and she did a good job.

I'd be willing to have another. He said you would do a good job. I like your resume, but I get my money from the county board. Supervisors, and I'm not funded right now I don't have any money to hire another deputy. And he said, You know, my face, Phil. So he said, Well, I don't have any money. But let me walk you around the offices here, I'll at least show you what the offices are like. So we walked around, he didn't have too many people, nine or 10 deputies. And he said, as you can see, I don't have an empty office to put another deputy right now. So I went back to the lazy day ranch to plan for our wedding. And I wrote them a long letter. It's now in the museum now there. I told him all the things I thought I could do for him. If he take me on and I said in the letter, I will work for you for nothing. Until such time as you are in a position to pay me something I said, it doesn't matter. I'll work for nothing. And I said, I know you don't have a bacon office. But I met with Secretary who's very nice. There's really in her office to put a second desk if she had no objection. That was my first job as a woman lawyer, no pay, and I put my desk in with the secretary. But I'll tell you what, I loved my job. It was terrific. I just I was on the civil side. I got to receive questions about, can I do this? or How should I handle that from the various county officers and boards and commissions. I just loved it. It couldn't have been better. I didn't want to work on the criminal side. So I was on the civil side. And it was just super. So that's how I had to get my start. And I think I'd been there four or five months under that arrangement. When the county attorney who had taken me on under that arrangement was appointed judge of the county and we were also acting for him. That was great. And my supervisor became the county attorney and Matt opened up a little room and I started getting a--but it was hard.

Elizabeth Davis
Justice O'Connor, let me offer my personal word of thanks for paving the way for women like me to have an opportunity I did not have to face the difficulties. Well,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
it has improved. And when President Reagan put a woman on the supreme court after 191 years without one, I can't tell you how many doors that open for women in this country and around the world because the other countries Like we were they weren't hiring women lawyers. And that made a huge difference. I don't know, if President Reagan himself knew what a difference that decision made for women in this country, but it really did. So that was a big move that this man to my left was involved in whether he knew it or not, I don't know. But that made a sea change in the United States.

Elizabeth Davis
Well, and I can attest, he's been a strong proponent of women in leadership throughout his career, and I appreciate it. Okay, let's fast forward about 40 or 50 years. media has changed a lot since you were appointed to the court. How has cable, the internet and social media impacted interest in issues the court decides?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I don't think it's changed anything. I mean, really, Supreme Court justices don't go home and listen to the evening news to decide some question before the court.

In fact, if anything, it just makes you wish you didn't have to decide anything at all. If we were going to have all that news coverage. You can imagine what it was like if there was the bush gore election case or something. I mean, it's just absurd to think that there can be media pressure, they're really camp and the justices do not pay attention to that. You have legal issues to decide. And you read the briefs matter of the parties and all that amateurs grapes. legal research matters you want to read, read the cases that have already been handed down in the past that deal with that issue of law. You want to be familiar with them and what they stand for. And you want to understand the facts of the case before you and its history in the court. And the arguments of the parties. You read the briefs filed by people who aren't parties, they're called friend of the court briefs, amateurs briefs. You read those, but that's it and in the media really has nothing to do with it. They can be as outrageous as they want to be, it's not going to matter.

Unknown Speaker
Okay, what was the best thing about being a Supreme Court justice, and what was the most challenging aspect of that job?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, the challenging things to try to act, cast your votes on granting cases and on deciding in a way that When you are well informed about the principles of law, and the precedents that you're trying to apply, and to feel that you've read everything you can and should read, to enable you to cast a rational, defense defensible vote on the case before and it's it's challenging to do that sometimes you have vast amounts to read and never enough time to do as much as you'd like. But you just want to know everything you can so that the vote when you cast it is a meaningful one. And that you are satisfied that you have done the proper thing is dictated by the precedents and by the law of this land. And it's such a privilege to be one of those votes and to be at the court and privilege to decide Some of these issues that matter to all of us, to you and to me to all of us. You feel a sense of great responsibility, but also a great privilege to be in an institution that is respected by the nation and the nation is willing to accept those decisions, even when they come down five, or the nation is willing to accept them and go forward. What a blessing it is for us to live in a country that has a system like that and where we can have decisions decided thoughtfully, very often via Supreme Court and then go forward. I felt so privileged, you feel a huge responsibility, but also a sense of great privilege to be part of that process.

Unknown Speaker
And I will, last question. Here people in the news bemoaning the state of our country and our future. What is your view or your dream for America?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
We're all right, goodness. You know, we're a country.

Look around you here you are at a wonderful university in a community that treasures this university. And you spend time here learning about how things are in what your area of interest is. And in, in coping with the issues all of us face. And we care about so much we want clean air and we want safe roads and we want to go out on the street and feel like we're not going to be shot and killed or that our house is going to be broken into We want things to work well. And we still have the capacity to do that. You live in a community, like, right here in Texas, you've achieved that. And we're so lucky. And we can keep doing that. And we, we each have a voice in a forthcoming presidential election. That's amazing. It's going to be very tight. Remember to vote, lots of people don't know. And one of the things you can do is encourage every citizen to exercise their franchise and not just sit down and sit on it. I don't know what you end up with in excess, but I can tell you in Arizona, where I now vote, the number of registered voters who vote is low. I mean, it's just shocking. Shocking. So we have to care and we have to exercise our right devote We have to work hard to make the community in which we live a safe, clean, decent place to live. And if we can do that, and if we can apply ourselves to earning a living, however, we're going to do it. We're going to manage and we're going to make this whole thing work. We've done it for a couple of hundred years already. And we can continue to do that. But we have to be educated and we have to work hard. So do those two things. We're going to be all right.

Ken Starr
Ladies and gentlemen, join me in saying thank you.

Sandra Day O'Connor.

Native Texan.

mother, grandmother,

spouse of beloved John O'Connor for 57 years.