Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Now, if I say--thank you, stop piping. It takes me a little while to get around these days. So I'm a little slow. I didn't mean for it to extend the clapping period.

It's wonderful to be here. And I've enjoyed all of it. And you ended up with some pretty terrific commentary, I must say, and Bonnie Mac of vain Hunter, I hate to follow her, because she's too good. So that was a treat to get to hear her today. And thank you, David for the kind introduction.

Those of us who are part of iCivics are very appreciative of being here and being involved here at this university. Because I think that in the weeks and months and years ahead, maybe we can really achieve some things that matter in educational field. I think we can, and I'm enthusiastic about that. And as I've been pointing out for a while now, I'm just an unemployed cowgirl. At the same time I'm aware of the fact that my life and my career has spanned some complex and contentious and important periods in our nation's history. It's certainly involved, among other things, getting women in the work world in our country. And I've been fortunate to witness that history and to have been part of it. And growing up on a cattle ranch in the southwest shaped so much of who and what I am, and of the values that still guide me. I think I remain a cowgirl at heart, but other chapters in my life have also helped shape my beliefs.

My experiences on the Supreme Court and since are what has driven me to my current commitment to civic learning and education in our country. But before getting into that, let me take you back to an earlier time in my life and why it's relevant to me today.

When I graduated from Stanford Law School, I did well in law school, it was great. One of my classmates was William Rehnquist, who later became our Chief Justice. Now, isn't that amazing? And I got out of law school, and my husband to be—we hadn't quite gotten married yet—John O'Connor had been deferred from the draft. We had a draft, and we were always at war. And so anyway he'd been deferred. And they ended that deferment and drafted him. And so that meant one of us had to go to work, because you couldn't get enough to eat on what was paid to a private in the military. And so I needed a job.

And I wanted to get a job as a lawyer, I'd finished law school. And I had classmates who were getting good jobs in the big firms in California. And I ranked high in my class. But the problem was, I was female. And I couldn't get a job. They all said no, when I applied, and I eventually did get a job, but it was without pay. I got a job in the county attorney's office of San Mateo County, California. I loved my job. It was wonderful. But they didn't hire women. And so they wouldn't pay me anything. Now I stayed there quite a while. And eventually I did start getting a salary. But I just spent those years trying to work through the problems that women had in those years of getting a job and, having gotten one, getting paid for it. And very few of my male classmates had that experience.

It was different for women. And that early experience made me realize that maybe I did have a role to play in helping shape the character of our nation. And that, that kind of spread out at different levels of government. And after those first years in California, San Mateo County Attorney's office, I went on, we, we married, and John committed to his service from the draft. And we moved, eventually, to Arizona to live, because John got a job there in a law firm that he really liked. And that worked out well in Arizona. I actually did get a job for a while and they paid me something. It was the Attorney General's Office for Arizona. And man I had, but I became active in the political life of our state. And I was elected to the Arizona State Senate. And that was an interesting experience, to say the least. I served some years. And I was selected by my colleagues as the senate majority leader. And that was an interesting experience at the legislative level because we did have a little bit of clout. And later still, I was put on the Arizona Court of Appeals.

Now, I think I got that job because it appeared that there was some chance that I would run for governor. And that competition was not welcomed in all those circles. So I became a Court of Appeals judge. And I got a mysterious phone call one day when I was at my desk from the White House. And the White House operator said they were sending somebody to meet and talk with me. So I said, "All right." And three men showed up at my door, and we visited and they were at my house out in Paradise Valley. And I think I cooked some Mexican food for lunch, which was pretty good. I mean, we all know the power of a good Mexican meal, and from that time on my life was never the same. So that's advice to you young women.

Now, the next time I got a call from the White House, it was President Ronald Reagan on the phone. And he said, "Sandra, I'd like to announce your appointment to the Supreme Court tomorrow. Is that all right with you?" Now, quote, unquote, that was the conversation. And I said, "Yes, Mr. President." And I was really proud to serve as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. For the years that I was there, almost a quarter of a century. It was challenging work and rewarding in the experiences that I had. And when I retired in 2006, I was not exactly a spring chicken, but I did still have a goal that was high on my list of things to accomplish. That included restoring civics education in our nation's schools. When I was packed off to school from the ranch in the early years, I went to El Paso. And we had civics classes. I thought they were boring as could be, to tell you the truth, but we did have them.

And the skills and knowledge of citizenship are not handed down through the gene pool, you have to learn them. And every generation has to learn them. And I think it's a classic example of this state's motto, which is Let It Be Perpetual. Do I have it right? Yeah, Let It Be Perpetual. So civics education needs to be perpetual, I'm afraid. And those who operate, those of us who operate in the judicial system, have a special obligation to help the public understand our role in the leadership system in our great democracy. And I'm always shocked with how little people know and understand anything about the third branch of government, the one where I worked.

And during my time on the Supreme Court and in the years year since I have become more concerned about threats to our independent judiciary, and about efforts to politicize our courts, and some very unfounded and sometimes hateful attacks on judges, I recall one instance where state legislation was being considered called Jail for Judges. And it was a proposition, I think it was in South Dakota, that would have put the judge in jail if one side or the other disagreed with the holding. Well, in recent years, a great deal of research has been done by the so-called think tanks and universities and others that do confirm we ought to be concerned about this problem. And civic scores among high school seniors have declined since 2006. Civic scores and middle school students have remained at the same low level ever since 1998.

And on the last nationwide civics assessment test, two thirds of the students were, scored below proficient, that was the ranking. And only about one third of adult Americans can name the three branches of government, let alone say what they do. Now, only 7% of eighth graders can name the three branches of government. Less than one third of eighth graders can identify the historical purpose of the Declaration of Independence. It's right there in the name. You know, what do you say about that? Two thirds of Americans cannot name a single Supreme Court justice. Only one in seven can correctly name John Roberts as Chief Justice. Less than one fifth of high school seniors can explain how citizen participation benefits democracy. And the more I read, and the more I listen, the more apparent it is that our society suffers from an alarming degree of public ignorance when it comes to the way our government is structured, how it works and our system of checks and balances, and about the importance of an independent judiciary. And while the seeds of that ignorance are planted there in the early years of a child's education, too often this situation is not addressed at all, all the way through college and graduate school.

And that reality has led the federal Department of Education to issue a remarkable moment about college learning in democracy's future. In 2011, the report challenged all higher educational institutions to create educational environments for education for democracy, and civic responsibility as pervasive, not partial. Central, not peripheral. Now, just think about that. Our universities, and that includes our graduate and professional schools, had to be reminded to make civic education central, not peripheral, to their existence.

For younger students, those in middle and high school. One of the best ways educate young people about the judicial system and democracy is by embracing the digital age. And I've been working closely with some experts in law and technology and education to develop and publicize and market a website called iCivics. And it is an exciting and innovative educational resource that's being used by more and more teachers and young people in schools and homes across our country. iCivics includes some exciting video games, some Curriculum Units and lesson plans and online forum for student engagement. And this I think, is the most important work I've ever done. This Arizona cowgirl has gotten involved, believe it or not, with video games, and it's working. In the most recent school year, we had six and a half million visitors to the website. 35,000 teachers have created iCivics accounts. 11 million games have been played in the two years since we started it. And I'm not used to using terms like hits and unique visitors. But 11 million sounds like a lot of good learners to me. And best of all, our games are free. We've kept it free, there is no charge.

And I also served as co-chair for the Campaign for the Civic Mission of Schools. And we know from research and experience that giving students real life experiences in self-governance and civic participation can have lasting impacts. And there are ways to have students learn that are better and more effective than sitting and listening to a boring lecture on how a bill becomes a law. Democracy is a sustained and perpetual conversation among our citizens about how best to govern, but people can't comfortably or effectively participate in that discussion if they aren't fluent in the topic of the conversation. So, recognizing that individuals do not automatically become responsible citizens, the American public school system was founded to prepare young people for knowledgeable citizenship. That was why we got schools in, to ensure the vibrancy of our democracy.

Now before she became First Lady, Eleanor Roosevelt wrote that the true purpose of education was good citizenship, concluding, "On the public school largely depends the success or the failure of our great experiment in government, by the people and for the people." I think Eleanor Roosevelt was right. Public education about civics is the only long-term solution to both preserving an independent judiciary and maintaining a robust constitutional representative democracy. And when I was a little girl and packed off to El Paso to go to school, where I lived with my grandparents, one day we were told that Eleanor Roosevelt was going to come visit us. Well, we had to shape up and put on something decent that day. I remember it that day. And all the little girls were out there by the flagpole outside Radford School for Girls. And we stood outside, and here came the limo down the street, a stretched out dark car parked nearby the school and stopped, and the driver got out and came around and opened the door. And out came Eleanor Roosevelt.

Now she was one of the most homely people you would ever see. It wasn't a thing of beauty. She had a slouch at the covered half her face, and a dress for the skirt came down to her ankles. Anyway, there she was. But she walked up to the flagpole and talked to us. And despite all those problems, it was very memorable and very impressive. Now, I did not dare tell my parents what had happened because they thought that Franklin Roosevelt was a real danger to our country and the only thing worse was Eleanor. I never told my parents about the onerous visit to this school, but I've never forgotten.

And before she became First Lady, Eleanor Roosevelt wrote that the true purpose of education was good citizenship. Concluding, "On the public school largely depends the success or failure of our great experiment in government, by the people and for the people," wrote Eleanor Roosevelt. And Eleanor Roosevelt was right about that. Public education about civics is the only long-term solution to both preserving an independent judiciary and to maintaining constitutional representative democracy in our country. And for many years public schools served this role very well.

Through the 1960s, the typical student was offered courses in American history and government and civics and learned about citizenship and the rights and responsibilities that came with it. That's not to say the civics courses of those years were engaging if they didn't capture my interest all that well, and may hard they seemed comprehensive. The darker moments in our country's history were often omitted in favor of a sugar-coated content that idealized the development of our nation's government. But even the flood, civic education of our nation in the past was better than what we have today, where civics is an afterthought in the typical public school, and as a result, most students today demonstrate a serious civics knowledge deficit.

Making matters worse, for too long when they do teach civics, it's dry and boring and passive. It doesn't convey to young people that civics is about who we are as a people and how we can engage and have an impact on the issues that we care about. In contrast, students using iCivics, that website I told you about, engage the content more actively and achieve some sort of muscle memory for civics. They learn foundational knowledge about democracy and are shown how to reason and apply that knowledge to solve real societal challenges. Best of all, if you use iCivics the students have a good time while learning. We often hear from students, "Hey, you snuck learning in on me while I was having fun!"

And the research shows the method is effective. Sadly, however, the research also shows that access to high quality civics education is not equal for all children. Distress, a distressing report from the research group at Mills College found that the two most significant factors in determining what type of civic education a young person received, where their socioeconomic status of the school and whether or not the students were college-bound. We're clearly not doing enough for all of America's children.

And not everyone is going to grow up to be a Bill Gates or Sheryl Sandberg, or a Bonnie McIlveen Hunter, or even See Slanders. But everyone is going to grow up to be a citizen. By design, government meant democratic processes belong to each and every citizen. For our democracy to survive and endure, we have to ensure that our citizens are well informed and prepared to face tough challenges. If there is a single child not learning about civics or being exposed to what they must do as citizens, then all our lives are the poorer for that.

And democracy is not a spectator sport. Thomas Jefferson said, "We in America do not have a government by the majority. We have a government by those who participate." And developing the leaders of tomorrow takes patience, passion, resources, and civic education. It requires a framework for advocacy, and a community for support. Now, all of you here have been leaders, leaders in your profession, some of you leaders in your homes and in your families, in your communities. And thus far, you've probably lead exceptional lives, recognized in your time to lead and enthusiastically answering the call.

But I'm here to tell you something important. Your time to lead is now. And your history of trailblazing needs to continue to meet the needs that we have right now. And we have plenty of them. So feel free to contact iCivics, contact my office, get involved, write letters to the editor, get involved with our state teams, talk to superintendents of instruction and curriculum directors. And know something here that I'm going to tell you. I will help you every step of the way in your efforts to rejuvenate civic education in this country and secure the vibrancy of our democracy for generations to come. So help me, will you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

Host
Great. Okay,

Host
I'm going to sit in your chair,

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, you'll have to speak up.

Gov. Cecil Andrus
Okay, we will be forever grateful for your attendance here and I know personally customer and I would say that we're very appreciative of your gracing the Andrus Center and Boise State University, a lesson today to many of us that are here and has given us the strength to go forward. So we will be forever in your debt. Thank you. Back to you.

Host
Thank you, Governor.

Host
Well, madam justice, those were stirring remarks. I think that you lit a fire here and I think you've got about 1,000 people now who are going to become members of iCivics and help you lead the charge to better educate our our children across America.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
There's no charge. There's just hard work, just hard work.

Host
Good. Good. Well, Idahoans are not averse to hard work. I know we know that. I know. Now, you you alluded to so many different chapters in your, in your very full life, a life full of accomplishments. And one of those was the call that you received from President Reagan. Yeah, informing you of the of the nomination. What was your immediate feeling when you got that call the digit drop the receiver.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, you can imagine here was the voice of Ronald Reagan on the phone. I was sitting in my office in Phoenix. "Sandra. -Yes, Mr. President. -I'd like to announce your nomination for the supreme court tomorrow. Is that alright with you?" Well, I mean, goodness sakes, what are you going to say to a president with—"Yes, Mr. President."

Host
And then did you immediately call some friends and family members? And did they believe how—

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
My husband walked in. And then we talked in the office about what to do. And I went home that afternoon a little early, and my house was surrounded by cars and people and it was, it was appalling. It really took some doing to even get to the house thereafter.

Host
I can imagine your life just took a sharp turn for the better, if the—

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I don't know for the better if you're concerned.

Host
And, and of course, what happens after you're nominated is that we have nomination hearings. And we have a clip. We think we have a clip. If we can roll that clip of some part of your nomination hearings, maybe this will take you down memory lane.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I hope not. Now, what's that?

Host
Frank Reynolds, remember the anchor?

---

Video Clip
The constitutional procedure that could lead to the first woman on the Supreme Court formally began today, the Senate Judiciary Committee open confirmation hearings on the nomination of Judge Sandra Day O'Connor. Most of the questioning was frankly, still there is opposition to where it was.

A report from congressional correspondent radio. Well, before today's hearing started, anti-abortion activists were gathered by the Capitol to demonstrate that no matter what happened inside, there was passionate opposition to Judge O'Connor outside. Right, yes.

The nominee arrived at the Senate by another entrance surrounded by friends and promptly got her first question not from a senator but a reporter.

Reporter
Are you ready?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
No, I don't think so.

Narrator
In the crowded hearing, the judge got a test of her judicial temperament, or at least her patience, and she had to sit through no fewer than 23 opening statements by the committee and assorted other politicians. Nearly all it seemed had come less to question her than to praise her. She has a great judicial temperament. She can be tough, but she's gentle. She clearly is conservative, but she never has placed partisan political values before justice. Then at last her opening statement, brief and general, but containing the vow of judicial restraint so dear to conservatives.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
The proper role of the judiciary is one of interpreting and applying the law, not making it.

Narrator
And in case anyone doubted her devotion to family values, she introduced her sister and brother in law, her husband and her son, all three of them. There was a flash of humor as son Brian stood.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
He is our adventurer. He is a skydiver, with over 400 jumps, including a dive off El Capitan in Yosemite last summer. I look forward to his retirement from that activity.

Narrator
Chairman Thurmond then began his questions, evidently rehearsed with the nominee as she read parts of her answers.

Host
GI Joe kinda.

Strom Thurmond
There's been much discussion about your views on the subject of abortion. Would you discuss your philosophy on abortion, both personal and judicial?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
My own view in the area of abortion is that I am opposed to it as a matter of birth control or otherwise.

Narrator
She did not deny she cast some votes in the Arizona Legislature that supported abortion, but she portrayed them as minor and suggested her concern about the issue had grown.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
That, I believe, public policy options generally about this particular area and problem have increased greatly over the last 10 years. And I would have to say that I think my own perceptions and awareness have increased. Likewise...

Narrator
Those answers on abortion are unlikely to placate right-to-life activists, but they kept her out of trouble with this committee today. And the Chairman Thurmond was saying at the end that Judge O'Connor could be confirmed as early as next week. Resume, ABC News on Capitol Hill.

---

Host
Now, now, Madam Justice, Frank Reynolds said most of the questions were friendly. Was Was that your perception of that day?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, I think most were but some are intended to put a little stress out there and perhaps some caution.

Host
That was quite a walkthrough. A Historical Museum of United States senators that we just witnessed. Do you have any any particular memories of some senators bothering you or annoying you more than others?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And their potential votes were concerned that

Host
they were We were you. Were you and your supporters worried in particular about, about that voting, or did you go in there pretty confidently?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I don't think I went there confidently, I would say with some concern.

Host
It's often the case, Madam Justice, that, that nominees are concerned not to talk too much about their constitutional philosophy, for fear that they will put off potential supporters. Did you feel like you had to walk a fine line on that kind of a question?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, everything was a concern. I hadn't been through any confirmation process. And this was a big event in my life, and it was rather a big event for the nation. And I didn't, on allows it up. So you approach everything with some caution and concern.

Host
Do you think if you look back to your remarks in 1981, at those hearings, would you have changed any of your remarks today?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, I don't look back. And I don't, can't do so don't take me.

Host
You know, thank you. You know,

Host
just Just so you know, I'm getting used to this direction from the Justice, direction from the Governor, very clear direction. Thank you. And I will add, by the way that because Justice O'Connor is still a sitting judge, we can't take up questions that might come before the Court, unless you want to change your mind just between us and talk about that.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, let's let that slide by.

Host
Okay. We'll do that. Now. You mentioned your great commitment to to the law. You work very hard. You were, you were graduate at the top of your class. And it was very difficult for you to get a job. Were there moments of great frustration when you couldn't find a job. And then when you

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
say so, I mean, my house is psychology. My husband and I both like the some outside source of income I was at. He had been drafted, and I don't know, he was paid $22 a month or something like that. That wasn't going to do it. And he was a lowly, you know, private somewhere. And so it was serious. We needed enough income to pay the rent and get something to eat. So it was a concern.

Host
And when you, when you did take your first job, but you weren't paid, did you consider that a job or a hobby at that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I considered that a job. It was better there treated as a job than a hobby. I didn't want to apply for the next one and say I'd never had a job.

Host
You're appointed, right. Now, when Justice Ginsburg joined you on the Court as the second woman appointed, did you share stories, commiserate with one another because she faced a similar difficulty, didn't she, when she graduated?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It might have gotten a little better, because they'd gotten one woman down the hatch, and it was not a disaster. So I think it helped a little bit when she came along.

Host
In this book that you recently published a year or so ago called Out of Order: A History of the Supreme Court, which is a marvelous look at the, at the Court, if I may say, you talked about some concerns that the, that the status of the Court is shrinking in the eyes of the public. Does that, does that concern you greatly?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It does, because the Supreme Court historically in the country, has enjoyed a pretty good status, I would say, among the three branches of government. I think the sense of respect of the Court, and properly so, and it's played a good role in our country. And I think that appreciation for the Court has diminished somewhat. What we know that from the polls that have been taken more recently, and I hope over time it will work its way back up. I don't think the Bush Gore decision helped it any.

Host
That was that was a rough decision wasn't it?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yeah.

Host
And, and if I may say, you you've been quoted in the press as saying that maybe the Court might have rendered a different decision or might, may not have taken that case.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well record the, there is no changing what happened.

Host
Do you think that the that the erosion of public confidence in the court is attributable to some decisions, maybe Bush v. Gore, other decisions, or simply a lack of civic understanding about the role of the Court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Perhaps both. I don't think, as I've told you here today, I don't think we're doing a very good job in civics education in our country these days. So perhaps that's part of it. But I'm sure things like Bush Gore are in the background still, too.

Host
And, and of course you feel passionately about the need to improve the quality of civic education across America.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes.

Host
And, and do you believe that that your own participation in all three branches of government before you came to the Court and the legislative, executive and judicial branches, that that helped to inform your own perception of your work on the court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I'm sure it did. I was lucky to have had the positions that I held. Whether I was paid or not, I learned something.

Host
You know, that's one of the issues that's often discussed as presidents have the opportunity to make appointments to the Court, considering whether or not there ought to be that kind of experience, where do you stand on that issue?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, what's the issue?

Host
Well, do you like the you like the idea that nominees will have had practical experience, maybe experience in other governmental offices?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, yes, but you can't make it a requirement. It's not a constitutional requirement. But it certainly is an interest to me. When I have to decide on what candidate among several to support. I want to know what their experience has been, what have their previous positions been, and how did they perform in those positions. It matters to all of us. And the higher the office, the more it matters to us.

Host
Sure. Before you came to the Supreme Court in 1981, did you have a list, maybe a short or long list of Supreme Court justices that you particularly admired, maybe a philosophy that you shared?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I didn't have a list like that. As you go through school, when you learn about some and you can, do think some maybe sound a little better to you than some others.

Host
I recall early on, maybe two years into your career on the Court, that you wrote a letter to the New York Times, a letter to the editor in effect replying to the fact that the Times continually referred to the members of the Supreme Court as nine old men, right? And, and what kind of a letter did you, did you write, a pretty funny letter?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I don't remember, I should have brought a copy if I knew you were going to ask I would have. But I got a kick out of reminding the Times that absent cell phone back on the basketball have time for it's good reporting that they wrote about the Court is there were nine old men. So I thought they needed a little reminder.

Host
And I as I recall in your letter, you, you asked the editor if, if he had any information that was contrary to yours, please share it, which was a pretty swift kick.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
It was, that was fun.

Host
It was good. And and how would you characterize the way in which the press covers the Court, because there's a great deal of discussion, when we talk about the deficit in the area of civic literacy, whether or not the American public is, in fact, getting a good base of knowledge about the Court from America.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
We're lucky in this country, for the depth of that material that we are permitted to read about the operation of our government. I've spent time with my husband in other countries during the course of our marriage, and we lived in Germany quite a while and I observed the amount of information available elsewhere. And I think we're privileged in this country to get a lot of information, more than most of us are willing even read, right? Am I right? Yeah.

Host
Would you say looking back on your own education that there was a teacher to who sparked your interest in government, in civic education in the law and helped to persuade you to go on to Stanford Law?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I can't point to one and say they did. But I remember distinctly, as all of you do, specific teachers that I had in grade school and some in high school, that made a deep impression on me and that I thought were very effective as teachers. And we've all been blessed by having some really good ones. And I thank my lucky stars that I had some.

Host
I recall reading that during your years on the Court that you sat on a pillow that had embroidered on it, if I'm correct about this, "Maybe in error but never in doubt."

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
him brighter, but I had him finding funny yellow. For a while I've had that printed on it, "Maybe in error but never in doubt."

Host
And what did that reflect about your own—

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Just, nothing except, you know, you have to cast a vote at the Supreme Court, you can agonize all you want about the case. But there comes a day when everybody has to put their vote in, and there you are.

Host
And in your wonderful discussion about other members of the court during the 25 years that you served, you offered some insightful anecdotes about different colleagues, you, if I recall you, you talked about the wit and sense of humor of William Rehnquist. And others.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes. He was a classmate of mine in law school. Isn't that amazing that two people who were classmates had ended up on the Court? And that was also true, I guess, on other occasions on the Court, but that was amazing that we ended up on it at the same time. And he was very intelligent, very gifted, we were lucky to having my thing. And in law school, I, there was no housing at Stanford for graduate women's students, none. And the widow of the former head of the education department at Stanford decided to open her house and let some graduate women students live in the house. And that gave us a little cushion, and I lived in that house. It was great. And, but I felt that was to have her do that. And I remember quite well, those days.

Host
When you think about the role of a justice and the process of writing an opinion, I think many are familiar with the fact that Justice Black always like to—who left the court a decade before you arrived—liked to say that he wrote opinions for the general public. Where, did you take that view that you, you are writing for the American citizenry? What was your approach?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
To an extent, yes. You, when you write, you realize that the readership is broader than it is for the average appellate court judge in the country, for your writing for the the parties in the case and the immediate circumstance. But at the Supreme Court level, the reader audience is broader than it would be elsewhere. And I think as a result, you feel a greater obligation to write reasonably and intelligently about the issues in a way that somebody's not skilled in the law can understand what you're talking about, writing about.

Host
Many Americans are excited to know more about the interaction among the justices when it comes to writing opinions. Can you shed some light on the drafting process and exchange, in your opinion, exchange of views and going through the drafts of opinions.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Every case is discussed by all the justices at a conference after the arguments of a brand, the braids, they've gone to the arguments, they may get together and may talk about it. And as a result of that conference, then the Chief Justice assigns the duty of writing an opinion in each case to someone on the court. And the real at, the chief has complete flexibility there and I'm sure has to think about a lot of things. How much, does that justice have a backlog of uncirculated opinions? Are they up to date? Can they handle it? Will I handle it? Out, out in listening to the discussion, which justice's views seemed the most representative of the whole group and maybe assign it that way. Anyway, it's a hard job for the Chief Justice to assign. But ultimately the Chief Justice decides how to assign the writing duties to the various justice on that particular group of cases.

Host
And that process was very important, if I recall correctly, to the practice of naming the court the O'Connor Court because it was

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Valley was never named back now. I don't know.

Host
Well, you know, how, you know how professors of constitutional law are, they can be held accurate.

Host
But, but of course, you you meant to say present company excepted.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, right. I did mean that.

Host
So, so the the wayward souls who would tell their students that this is the O'Connor Court really reflected the fact that you were often the swing vote on many, many—

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
And I never knew if I "swing" term. I mean, picture: up here, over there, doesn't matter where you are, up or down, anything will do. I never liked the term.

Host
Good. Well, we're not going to use it anymore.

Host
The, yeah. When you when you talk about it when you talk about your colleagues over the years and to go back, you mentioned what a funny humorous person, William Rehnquist was, what were your relations? Like with Justice Ginsburg, did you have a particular affinity simply by virtue of the fact you have, had now another female on the Court?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I thought that was a good deal that I mean, we didn't have any particularly close relationship by virtue of any previous experience or acquaintance. I didn't really know her, and I never
sat on any court together with her. So that was a new experience for me, but uh, welcome on. She's very efficient. Very confident and fair about how she writes and approaches things. It was good to have her there.

Host
In the, in the book Out of Order, you dedicate it to the very first female law clerk. And you remark on the changes in the Court now, one third of the Court happens to be women. And as you look at the court as an institution, do you think it's done as much as it might to promote gender equality? Are there other things that the Court might do as meaning the case law?

Host
Well, or either in the case law or just the institution itself?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
I think the institution has done well, but enough to the members of the court. They don't appoint, the justices have very little to do with it.

Host
If we shift gears for a moment and and return to civics, iCivics is an issue of great passion and interest to you, you spoke eloquently about the future of the country. The Republic hinges on the education of the citizenry. You take that to be an acute concern, don't you?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Yes, I do.

Host
How is it that American citizens can learn to participate more effectively in, in American politics?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, they can make it a habit to read, but they can about what's going on in the nation. And in the nation's highest court and kind of follower, they can do that. They can also care about the education that their children are getting, and encourage their children's schools to at least teach civics and make sure it's covered.

Host
And of course, one of the key ways to participate is through freedom of expression. Yes, free speech, but a lot of, a lot of American citizens, Madam Justice, are a little bit intimidated about speaking out, particularly if they're going to offer a minority view, fear that they might be characterized as disloyal or unpatriotic. What, what message would you send to those citizens who might want to express their views?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Well, isn't that funny because I didn't meet a whole lot of people who were afraid to express their views. It was quite the opposite. They were all too eager to tell you what they didn't like. They enjoyed their civil liberties. They did. Yeah, I didn't sense this awkwardness in being afraid to speak out. I thought it was quite the reverse. Haha. I see. And, and when I say would you want to see

Host
I see plenty of it in the classroom. That's true. Yeah, that's very true. Do you believe we're just about out of time and really regret that?

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Are you disappointed?

Host
I would like three more hours. Governor, Governor Andrus would grant us three more hours I'm sure the, as we move toward a close there, when we talk about the importance of iCivics and, and the important work of your center to promote civic education. I take it that, that you're, this is going to be a long-term commitment for you, a great, passionate commitment. And you're touring the country. You're, you're very energetic, if I may so, you're

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
not worrying that country. I don't hesitate to say yes, I'll go to Boise.

Host
And we're very grateful for that. And we are, and we are so very grateful that you've come to Boise to share your view. And we just hope that in the next part of your trip, you'll have great luck in catching some big Idaho trout.

Sandra Day O'Connor [automatically transcribed, may contain inaccuracies]
Thank you. I don't care where the trout's from, but I like to catch 'em.

Host
You like to do that.

Host
Well said. Perfect. Thank you.